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  #1  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 1:47 AM
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Was there still undeveloped parcels of land in midtown Manhattan in 1905??

So I'm reading this book on FDR ("FDR" by Jean Edward Smith), and in chapter 4 it talks about how, right after Franklin's and Eleanor's marriage, Franklin's mother, Sara:
"... informed Franklin and Eleanor that she was building a townhouse for them, 'A Christmas present from Mama - number and street not yet decided.' The following year Sara bought an expensive plot on East Sixty-fifth Street just off Park Avenue and hired a well-known architect, to draw plans for two adjoining houses ..."
And I thought ... Huh??? Was there really still raw plots of land in the east 60's in Manhattan in 1905? I don't get the impression from the passage that they bought something that had to be torn down, it sounds like it was just undeveloped land. I would have thought everything in Manhattan south of, like, Harlem would have been developed by then. If it was, say, 1880 then sure, but 1905??? Is that much of Manhattan really that new?

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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 2:00 AM
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 2:03 AM
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it sounds to me like they made a single residence mansion out of the adjoining properties. You still see that with nice old walk-ups in places like the Upper East Side.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 2:06 AM
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it sounds to me like they made a single residence mansion out of the adjoining properties. You still see that with nice old walk-ups in places like the Upper East Side.
I'm not so sure. They hired an architect and the whole bit, it sounds like it was brand-new construction on raw land. Nothing says they tore anything down first.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 3:01 AM
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Well, here's the old Metropolitan Opera House in 1905, which was located in Midtown (1411 Broadway).

Wikipedia

But the FDR house you're talking about is north of Midtown, no? It's near Central Park---which of course wasn't really "central" to the population of NYC when it was first created, and was actually a park meant for the wealthy, and of course the wealthy lived near it---like the aforementioned Roosevelts.

The John Jacob Astor house (he was the richest man to die on the Titanic) was located right across the street from Central Park, at 5th Ave. and 65th St. It was designed in 1893. I don't know the date of this photo, though.

Newsweek

My guess is that north of Midtown and around Central Park, there were still some undeveloped plots of land? I'm not sure.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 3:14 AM
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Here's 5th Ave. and 66th St. in 1900.

Viewing NYC

Circa early 1880s, here's the upper east side.

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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 3:19 AM
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Here's a fucking insanely bonkers awesome map of Manhattan from 1908 that everyone who is a map nerd should click on:

https://thevintagemapshop.com/produc...-eye-view-1908

According to this map it appears as though the only undeveloped land at that point is up around Washington Heights and points north. Granted this is three years later, but I can't imagine it had changed that drastically.

EDIT: Looking at it a little closer, I'm not sure how accurate that map is. Manhattan Island seems a bit stubby.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 9:08 AM
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EDIT: Looking at it a little closer, I'm not sure how accurate that map is. Manhattan Island seems a bit stubby.
Reay cool map, but I too am skeptical.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 1:22 PM
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No way there was virgin land in Midtown in 1905. But no doubt there were shanties and other low-value or low-intensity uses.

Keep in mind that Midtown didn't become Midtown until the 1920's, really. It was more of a residential neighborhood prior to the completion of the rail terminals, which really shifted commercial demand northward. Park Avenue in Midtown was still residential until the mid-20th century. Now there are no residential buildings on Park south of 57th, and only one or two were left by 1960. The postwar years, especially, solidified Midtown as the region's center.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 1:57 PM
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Granted, the book is a bio about FDR and not a treatise on NYC development patterns, but when somebody says that somebody bought a "plot" of land usually that's going to refer to an undeveloped piece of land. But if the area looked like sopas' photo above of 66th and 5th I have a real hard time believing anybody would tear down something like that just to build a similar townhouse.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 2:05 PM
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I think it makes sense that there were still plots of land for purchase. Low intensity assemblages with shacks and chickens running around. Open-air workshops, blacksmiths and the like. But not virgin forest. And Manhattan has very rocky ground, so there wouldn't be much farmland.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 2:18 PM
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Inwood was an island on that map? The Queensboro Bridge opened a year after that map was made. Also, I don't see any elevated train lines, other than the bridges.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 2:22 PM
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According to Wikipedia, the last farm plot in Manhattan sold in 1954.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inwood,_Manhattan

I doubt it was a real commercial farm, however. Probably just a plot of land with some minor agricultural uses. There's technically a working farm in Queens, right now, but it's city-owned plot for teaching kids about agriculture.

Inwood was never an island, but Marble Hill, now attached to the Bronx, was formerly part of Manhattan Island. The Harlem River was re-routed at some point.

Upper Manhattan was the boonies until the subway reached the area, then there were huge waves of midrise apartment construction, mostly filled by upwardly mobile Irish and Jews moving to nicer accommodations. There are still Irish and Jewish enclaves way uptown, west of Broadway, with elderly that are probably one generation removed from original apartment dwellers.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 2:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
According to Wikipedia, the last farm plot in Manhattan sold in 1954.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inwood,_Manhattan

I doubt it was a real commercial farm, however. Probably just a plot of land with some minor agricultural uses. There's technically a working farm in Queens, right now, but it's city-owned plot for teaching kids about agriculture.

Inwood was never an island, but Marble Hill, now attached to the Bronx, was formerly part of Manhattan Island. The Harlem River was re-routed at some point.

Upper Manhattan was the boonies until the subway reached the area, then there were huge waves of midrise apartment construction, mostly filled by upwardly mobile Irish and Jews moving to nicer accommodations. There are still Irish and Jewish enclaves way uptown, west of Broadway, with elderly that are probably one generation removed from original apartment dwellers.
According to the source on that (https://books.google.ca/books?id=QzM...page&q&f=false), the farm operated on about 1/3 of the city block, with a used car dealer and parking lot on the other 1/3 after the 1930's. The entire block is only a little over an acre.

I mean it clearly produced agricultural products, but I'm not sure how much you can really call a farm operating on about 1/3rd of an acre as an actual agricultural operation. Sounds more like a hobby garden to me. Apparently the farm sold only about $50 worth of produce in 1950 - about $1,000 today.

Edit: 1951 aerial imagery shows this micro farm - i've added the red outline to show it. The 1924 imagery does show a farm on the entire block, but most of Inwood was completely undeveloped in 1924.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 3:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
Here's a fucking insanely bonkers awesome map of Manhattan from 1908 that everyone who is a map nerd should click on:

https://thevintagemapshop.com/produc...-eye-view-1908

According to this map it appears as though the only undeveloped land at that point is up around Washington Heights and points north. Granted this is three years later, but I can't imagine it had changed that drastically.

EDIT: Looking at it a little closer, I'm not sure how accurate that map is. Manhattan Island seems a bit stubby.
love this, thanks so much.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 5:52 PM
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If I do a search of the Old Penn Station, built in 1910, there are a couple of photos that show empty grass lots on two sides. Are these photos accurate?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...t=0&ajaxserp=0
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 8:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
If I do a search of the Old Penn Station, built in 1910, there are a couple of photos that show empty grass lots on two sides. Are these photos accurate?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...t=0&ajaxserp=0
Those aren't photos, rather postcards based on real photos. The difference is that the image on the postcard has been thoroughly cleaned up and colorized to make the area depicted in the postcard more appealing. Streets that are usually full of horse manure, ruts, and puddles have been sanitized into a completely clean flat surface. Utility and telegraph poles have likewise been cleaned up and removed, with not a single telegraph or electrical line to be seen. Even people have been removed if they aren't appealing enough.

Think of it as old-timey Photoshop and post-editing.

In other words, you get an idea what things were like back then, but not a completely honest idea.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 9:18 PM
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Yeah, there's no way the old Penn Station context looked like that, given it was an urban renewal project that replaced what was considered one of the worst tenement slums in NYC.

It was a black & immigrant neighborhood that was wiped out, replaced with grand neoclassical structures like Penn Station and a new main post office.
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Old Posted Jun 22, 2022, 9:27 PM
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This is what Penn Station looked like in the 1910s.

Wikipedia
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