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  #81  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Ohio's smaller cities actually have quite a few big companies still, despite many relocations over the years.

Fortune 1000 Companies in Ohio's >1 million metros
Toledo: 5 (3 Fortune 500)
Akron: 4 (2 Fortune 500)
Canton: 2
Findlay: 1 (Fortune 500)
Wooster: 1 (Fortune 500)

Yeah, Boise has 3 Fortune 500 companies (Micron, Albertsons, Boise Cascade), and its metro is only ~850k.

Based on that Fortune map, there aren't any F500 companies in Utah. That's shocking to me given the number of large companies in SLC.
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  #82  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
Will there be enough Crown Castles and Academys to make up for the energy transition?

I personally think we are in the midst of another O&G supercycle for the rest of the 2020s much like the one from ~2000-2014 until the commodity bust happened. But after that things will get dicey.

Also the hurricane and flooding issues hurt corporate relocations.
I only gave two examples. There are several other large ones like KBR. There's been a couple companies that dropped any mention of energy or oil out of their name entirely because they hardly supply for that industry anymore.

As far as corporate relocations go, Houston has never been the magnet DFW or Austin is, but the area still gains corporate headquarters even after the historic flooding of the 2010s. All the city has to do is show flood mitigation efforts, which there are plenty and it has shown their worth already with a few storms Houston has had the last couple years.

These are giant legacy companies with many different parts. They aren't going to just vanish. Like look at all the companies that fall under Shell NA HQ (things like Jiffy Lube, Timewise, etc.). At worst these energy companies will buy out whatever green startup emerges, but even then, creating green energy requires the use of fossil fuels, so it goes right back.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Right, but this is a circular argument. I'm asking why Caterpillar (and a host of other HQ) are moving HQ jobs to DFW. I don't think the answer is "bc there are jobs in DFW."

Fine, if people love sprawl, hate cities, hate anything built before 1990, don't want trees, hills, water, whatever, but why DFW specifically, when there are a whole host of U.S. metros with plentiful sprawl.

And DFW isn't all that cheap anymore. I do work with a firm in Flower Mound (an upscale Fort Worth suburb) and the homes aren't cheap. They're big, ugly boxes, but the prices people pay would get you a nice home in CA or NY.
Because DFW has the most manicured suburbs in America. DFW is void of natural features outside of rolling terrain (although SW Dallas County is Texas Hill Country-like), so the suburb city planners went all out with man-made features (DFW has like 10+ area recreational lakes). DFW is pretty forward thinking as far as landscaping goes too which freshens the appearance. You have a simply grid layout making it easy to get around. Each suburb also competes with each other so they try to build the best town centers, which improves the QOL for residents as there are more options to choose from. DFW has some of the most built up suburbs in the US. Also Flower Mound isn't a FW suburb (it is pretty strictly Dallas and people who live there associate with DAL more than FW).

There are very few areas in America that match the middle/upper-middle class critical mass that the north DFW burbs bring. I'm talking consistency of niceness, middle class areas at worst, with no breaks in between. Only places in America I can think of like this is South Orange County (CA), Johnson County (KS), and Silicon Valley. For someone in their 30s-40s with a young family, there's almost no better place in America to raise a kid if what you value most is safety, great schools, reasonably priced homes, access to parks, responsive city services, moderate weather, and access to major metro amenities.

You can always take a short flight from DFW and visit somewhere scenic. Heck, you can take a couple hour drive to the mountains in SE Oklahoma. DFW may not be as cheap as it used to be anymore, but it is still pretty cheap for a metro of 8M people. DFW is still cheaper than Chicagoland for example. Gas is over $1 higher in Chicagoland, and property taxes in Illinois are as bad as TX, if not worse.

And lastly, Caterpillar already had employees in DFW. Most of these companies who move there already had hundreds, if not thousands of employees present already. An outlier to this was Toyota.
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  #83  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post
I only gave two examples. There are several other large ones like KBR. There's been a couple companies that dropped any mention of energy or oil out of their name entirely because they hardly supply for that industry anymore.

As far as corporate relocations go, Houston has never been the magnet DFW or Austin is, but the area still gains corporate headquarters even after the historic flooding of the 2010s. All the city has to do is show flood mitigation efforts, which there are plenty and it has shown their worth already with a few storms Houston has had the last couple years.

These are giant legacy companies with many different parts. They aren't going to just vanish. Like look at all the companies that fall under Shell NA HQ (things like Jiffy Lube, Timewise, etc.). At worst these energy companies will buy out whatever green startup emerges, but even then, creating green energy requires the use of fossil fuels, so it goes right back.



Because DFW has the most manicured suburbs in America. DFW is void of natural features outside of rolling terrain (although SW Dallas County is Texas Hill Country-like), so the suburb city planners went all out with man-made features (DFW has like 10+ area recreational lakes). DFW is pretty forward thinking as far as landscaping goes too which freshens the appearance. You have a simply grid layout making it easy to get around. Each suburb also competes with each other so they try to build the best town centers, which improves the QOL for residents as there are more options to choose from. DFW has some of the most built up suburbs in the US. Also Flower Mound isn't a FW suburb (it is pretty strictly Dallas and people who live there associate with DAL more than FW).

There are very few areas in America that match the middle/upper-middle class critical mass that the north DFW burbs do. I'm talking consistency of niceness, middle class areas at worst, with no breaks in between. Only places in America I can think of like this is South Orange County (CA), Johnson County (KS), and Silicon Valley. For someone in their 30s-40s with a young family, there's almost no better place in America to raise a kid if what you value most is safety, great schools, reasonably priced homes, access to parks, responsive city services, and access to major metro amenities.

You can always take a short flight from DFW and visit somewhere scenic. Heck, you can take a couple hour drive to the mountains in SE Oklahoma. And it may not be as cheap as it used to be anymore, but it is still pretty cheap. DFW is still cheaper than Chicagoland for example. Gas is over $1 higher in Chicagoland, and property taxes in Illinois are as bad as TX, if not worse.

And lastly, Caterpillar already had employees in DFW. Most of these companies who move there already had hundreds, if not thousands of employees present already. An outlier to this was Toyota.
It's surprising that Houston has that big medical center but no major pharma or biotechs there. A missed opportunity.
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  #84  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
It's surprising that Houston has that big medical center but no major pharma or biotechs there. A missed opportunity.
Agreed. This is getting a lot better now with the Texas Medical Center 3 (TMC3) and Rice University's ION Center. It's all apart of the great diversification of Houston's economy.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
DFW has been good at attracting manufacturing HQs, but not much else. Unless I'm missing something. DFW poached Comerica from Detroit over a decade ago, but I can't think of any other big knowledge industry relocations to there.
Charles Schwab moved recently to DFW from SF. There was a couple other financial companies that made big investments too. That whole TX-114 Freeway corridor in DFW is a financial center hotbed. It's why the small cities around that freeway have some of the most expensive neighborhoods in all of DFW (cities of Southlake, Trophy Club, Westlake, etc.).
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  #85  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 1:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post
There are very few areas in America that match the middle/upper-middle class critical mass that the north DFW burbs bring. I'm talking consistency of niceness, middle class areas at worst, with no breaks in between. Only places in America I can think of like this is South Orange County (CA), Johnson County (KS), and Silicon Valley. For someone in their 30s-40s with a young family, there's almost no better place in America to raise a kid if what you value most is safety, great schools, reasonably priced homes, access to parks, responsive city services, moderate weather, and access to major metro amenities.
The North Dallas burbs are some of the ugliest, most soul-destroying landscapes in North America. They're objectively terrible. Mile after mile of the most hideous McMansions, endless grid, treeless, walled off neighborhoods, etc. Would never raise my kid there.

There's no way those burbs are safer, or have better schools, or parks, or city services, than in other metros. They don't often even have first world drainage, with the curb ditches. And then the high schools have college-level football stadia. Insanity. There are some very nice Dallas neighborhoods, but in Dallas proper and Highland Park. But the Plano-Frisco-Flower Mound type places are horrible.

And I don't know about any North Texas "moderate weather". Windy, extreme heat, ice storms, tornados, etc. Terrible weather. No thanks.

If you want endless plastic sprawl, fine, but you can find this anywhere in North America, and usually in much more attractive environments. My brother lives in sprawl but his neighborhood is a heavily wooded, hilly environment, with natural streams, something I've never seen in the Dallas area. And walkable to a 200-year-old town center. And much cheaper, outstanding services and top-tier schools.
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  #86  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 1:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post
I only gave two examples. There are several other large ones like KBR. There's been a couple companies that dropped any mention of energy or oil out of their name entirely because they hardly supply for that industry anymore.

As far as corporate relocations go, Houston has never been the magnet DFW or Austin is, but the area still gains corporate headquarters even after the historic flooding of the 2010s. All the city has to do is show flood mitigation efforts, which there are plenty and it has shown their worth already with a few storms Houston has had the last couple years.

These are giant legacy companies with many different parts. They aren't going to just vanish. Like look at all the companies that fall under Shell NA HQ (things like Jiffy Lube, Timewise, etc.). At worst these energy companies will buy out whatever green startup emerges, but even then, creating green energy requires the use of fossil fuels, so it goes right back.
There's also Quanta Services and Insperity. I just don't share your longer term optimism into the 2030s. Houston's high Fortune 500 ranking has always been based off of being the energy hub. I don't doubt that some O&G companies will transition or are transitioning into "energy companies", but will it be enough to keep Houston in the tier it is in?

It's sad to say, but all it takes is one Cat 4 hurricane up the gut to radically change Houston's prospects.
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  #87  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 1:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The North Dallas burbs are some of the ugliest, most soul-destroying landscapes in North America. They're objectively terrible. Mile after mile of the most hideous McMansions, endless grid, treeless, walled off neighborhoods, etc. Would never raise my kid there.

There's no way those burbs are safer, or have better schools, or parks, or city services, than in other metros. They don't often even have first world drainage, with the curb ditches. And then the high schools have college-level football stadia. Insanity. There are some very nice Dallas neighborhoods, but in Dallas proper and Highland Park. But the Plano-Frisco-Flower Mound type places are horrible.

And I don't know about any North Texas "moderate weather". Windy, extreme heat, ice storms, tornados, etc. Terrible weather. No thanks.

If you want endless plastic sprawl, fine, but you can find this anywhere in North America, and usually in much more attractive environments. My brother lives in sprawl but his neighborhood is a heavily wooded, hilly environment, with natural streams, something I've never seen in the Dallas area. And walkable to a 200-year-old town center. And much cheaper, outstanding services and top-tier schools.
Yea... you said that already. Clearly there is a disconnect between yourself and one of the metros that have outpaced most every other metro in jobs and population of the last decade or even 20 years.

As a native Houstonian, I don't think I've ever stuck up for Southern Oklahoma as much.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 3:04 AM
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Crawford has been in a sulk since Comerica left his old hometown of Detroit for the Metroplex.
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  #89  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 3:41 AM
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DFW, the new Heartland of America.
The region’s central location and efficient transportation infrastructure have given the DFW Metroplex a vital edge over competitors in attracting corporate relocations and expansions. Dallas is all about the servicing of the American economy, the linking of the two coasts. If you think of the middle of the country, you think of the Dallas-Fort Worth region. It’s a check mark on the list of factors when it comes to proximity to the two major coasts and of being able to serve the Midwest and, at the same time, all the way down into Mexico. Obviously, DFW International Airport is the economic force that fuels the region, the second busiest in the world in 2021. It’s the world’s fourth-largest airport in area coverage with plenty of growth. So large, it’s larger than the Island of Manhattan. The airport has a ZIP code of its own. The postal service technically considers the DFW International Airport a separate city. Finally, to put this in perspective, whether you look at it or not. The DFW region is the largest metro that is most centralized in the Nation and not only that, it’s the most centralized in the North American Continent. It is shorter in distance to all large metro areas in the North American Continent. Therefore, it really is becoming, “The Heartland of the North American Continent”
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  #90  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 3:43 AM
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  #91  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 4:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
No it is not.

In fact, DFW now has a 25% higher ZHVI than Chicagoland.

Coastal folks might still look at Dallas as "cheap", but these days, no one moves from the Midwest to Texas looking for cheaper homes like they might've done 2 - 3 decades ago. That equation has completely inverted itself.
Cheaper real estate in DFW wasnt 2-3 decades ago, it was 5-6 years ago. Especially the last 3 the escalation as most places has but here its been insane with massive in migration.
2 decades ago we bought our first house here for $57k, six years ago we sold a different house we built, very nice finish out, 3250 sq ft on a lake with boat dock for $335k, today that house is more like $750k. Admittedly over valued as most metros are at the moment.

Regarding DFW, I've lived most my life in California and Texas. Its very easy to see why HQs relocate here, although I agree the cheap housing thing has lessened, but the other factors remain being tax incentives, relatively low cost of living, central location, transportation, lower regulation and the metro area is extremely dynamic and buzzes with activity. Other factors, lots of developable land and at this point I think a lot of it is just momentum.
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Last edited by SLO; Jun 16, 2022 at 5:23 AM.
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  #92  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 4:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
There's also Quanta Services and Insperity. I just don't share your longer term optimism into the 2030s. Houston's high Fortune 500 ranking has always been based off of being the energy hub. I don't doubt that some O&G companies will transition or are transitioning into "energy companies", but will it be enough to keep Houston in the tier it is in?

It's sad to say, but all it takes is one Cat 4 hurricane up the gut to radically change Houston's prospects.
Will Houston be the corporate behemoth it was 30 years ago, probably not as energy was 'tech' of that era absolutely dominating the F500 but that's not to say it can't be highly competitive in the future with a more diverse economy spread out over smaller more innovative companies. Houston's economy as it is rather limited in options considering how large and healthy it supposedly is; I am having to work out of the Bay Area and I have colleagues with similar backgrounds working (remote) for companies in other cities.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post

And I don't know about any North Texas "moderate weather". Windy, extreme heat, ice storms, tornados, etc. Terrible weather. No thanks.
I love NYC but come on...total swamp ass in the summer and long shitty winters. Unless you're in southern California, we all pretty much drew the short straw as far as climate goes...
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  #93  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 4:42 AM
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Cheaper real estate in DFW wasnt 2-3 decades ago, it was 5-6 years ago. Especially the last 3 the escalation as most places has but here its been insane with massive in migration.
2 decades ago we bought our first house here for $57k, six years ago we sold a different house we built, very nice finish out, 3250 sq ft on a lake with boat dock for $335k, today that house is more like $750k. Admittedly over valued as most metros are at the moment.
Correct. Texas real estate really only blew up a few years ago. I bought my very modest 35 year old SW Austin home in 2012 for $172K. Similar homes today are selling for $500K to $750K. I paid cash. Clearly one of the best investments I ever made. I was damn near broke when I bought this place. Now it just might fund my assisted living for at least a few years. More will be revealed.
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  #94  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 4:45 AM
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Correct. Texas real estate really only blew up a few years ago. I bought my very modest 35 year old SW Austin home in 2012 for $172K. Similar homes today are selling for $500K to $750K. I paid cash. Clearly one of the best investments I ever made. I was damn near broke when I bought this place. Now it just might fund my assisted living for at least a few years. More will be revealed.
We got our house in 2012 as well and it's doubled in value. Good that we made a good investment, bad now that our property taxes are insane.
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  #95  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 4:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
W
I love NYC but come on...total swamp ass in the summer and long shitty winters. Unless you're in southern California, we all pretty much drew the short straw as far as climate goes...
The claim was that North Texas has mild weather, which is ridiculous. It's tornado alley, steaming hot half the year, and winters are fairly icy.

San Diego has mild weather. Dallas is the anthesis of mild weather.
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  #96  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 4:49 AM
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Crawford has been in a sulk since Comerica left his old hometown of Detroit for the Metroplex.
Yes, clearly that's it. A minor bank formerly HQ in a state I lived in 25 years ago, for a few years of childhood, made me think North Dallas sprawl is unattractive.
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  #97  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 4:51 AM
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The claim was that North Texas has mild weather, which is ridiculous. It's tornado alley, steaming hot half the year, and winters are fairly icy.

San Diego has mild weather. Dallas is the anthesis of mild weather.
I guess it's relative. It's mild if you moved to Plano from Cleveland.
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  #98  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 1:51 PM
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I have spent 100% of my life living in Michigan and New York. My absolute worst experience with a winter storm was on a work trip to Dallas.
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  #99  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 2:38 PM
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Toyota's North America HQ wasn't in Kentucky. That was the Toyota Technical Center. The N.A. Toyota HQ was always in California until it moved to Plano.

I looked up an article from that time period [https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinna...ters-by.html]:

Back in April 2014, Toyota (NYSE: TM) said it would be closing its Erlanger facility to open a new North American operations headquarters in Plano, Texas. Toyota’s three separate North American headquarters for its manufacturing, sales and marketing, and corporate operations are relocating to a single campus in Plano. Toyota’s manufacturing and engineering headquarters opened in 1996 in Erlanger.

At the time, the automaker said it expected to move about 1,000 employees from Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing North America Inc. to Plano. About 300 production engineering jobs in Erlanger were to be relocated to a new facility to be built at Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky (TMMK) in Georgetown. About 250 procurement employees are moving to a technical center in Ann Arbor, Mich.


How did Toyota end up in NKY to begin with? The Japanese bought dozens of Ohio's machine tool companies (many still family-owned) and parts suppliers in the 1970s and 1980s. Labor unions weren't strong in Kentucky and so they built the huge Camry plant in tiny Georgetown, between Cincinnati and Lexington, on the municipally-owned Cincinnati Southern Railroad.

https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-...mk-fact-sheet/

The influx of Japanese money into the region in the 1970s and 1980s is how the Ohio HSR plan came to exist, with the Japanese looking to sell their Shinkansen technology in an area where they now owned many companies that presumably would build train components.

My hunch is that the Japanese do not own as many companies in Ohio today as they did 30 years ago and so the "cluster" that they once maintained in the region is no longer so beneficial to Toyota.

I used to be friends with a girl who worked at the NKY office who was offered $20k to relocate to Dallas so she did. I haven't talked to her since, but I remember her being really turned off by Dallas. Where are the trees? The water? Somewhere nice to take a walk (aka a "park")?
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  #100  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2022, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
I looked up an article from that time period [https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinna...ters-by.html]:

Back in April 2014, Toyota (NYSE: TM) said it would be closing its Erlanger facility to open a new North American operations headquarters in Plano, Texas. Toyota’s three separate North American headquarters for its manufacturing, sales and marketing, and corporate operations are relocating to a single campus in Plano. Toyota’s manufacturing and engineering headquarters opened in 1996 in Erlanger.

At the time, the automaker said it expected to move about 1,000 employees from Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing North America Inc. to Plano. About 300 production engineering jobs in Erlanger were to be relocated to a new facility to be built at Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky (TMMK) in Georgetown. About 250 procurement employees are moving to a technical center in Ann Arbor, Mich.


How did Toyota end up in NKY to begin with? The Japanese bought dozens of Ohio's machine tool companies (many still family-owned) and parts suppliers in the 1970s and 1980s. Labor unions weren't strong in Kentucky and so they built the huge Camry plant in tiny Georgetown, between Cincinnati and Lexington, on the municipally-owned Cincinnati Southern Railroad.

https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-...mk-fact-sheet/

The influx of Japanese money into the region in the 1970s and 1980s is how the Ohio HSR plan came to exist, with the Japanese looking to sell their Shinkansen technology in an area where they now owned many companies that presumably would build train components.

My hunch is that the Japanese do not own as many companies in Ohio today as they did 30 years ago and so the "cluster" that they once maintained in the region is no longer so beneficial to Toyota.

I used to be friends with a girl who worked at the NKY office who was offered $20k to relocate to Dallas so she did. I haven't talked to her since, but I remember her being really turned off by Dallas. Where are the trees? The water? Somewhere nice to take a walk (aka a "park")?
I'm not sure of the history, but I have several friends who interned at Toyota in Ann Arbor in college. It was fairly common for them to travel back and forth between Ann Arbor and Northern Kentucky. Toyota might have even had a private plane to shuttle workers back and forth? But the actual North American HQ was still in California in the mid 00s.
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