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  #61  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 7:02 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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The Metroplex has been vacuuming up corporate HQ for decades. Don't get it. Even people who like North Texas are kinda "meh" on Dallas-Ft. Worth. Yeah, it's relatively central, with good air connections, but same goes for other metros. It has to be the most characterless western first world metro of its size.

Also, Dallas suburbs have to be some of the ugliest in North America. The HQ folks really dream of a brown McMansion on a windswept, treeless, sunbaked lot, with a drainage ditch? Over Winnekta and Hinsdale? Don't get it.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 7:12 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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There's SOME rhyme and reason.

Companies with highly-paid workforces and/or 20-something-leaning workforces tend to keep their bases in expensive cities. I mean tech and finance primarily. They're trying to attract the best and brightest from around the world, with a focus on new grads. I'm mostly referring to the ones with major HQ operations, not like Boeing.

The big HQs that move seem to be following cheap operating costs (tax breaks, lower cost of living), operational efficiencies (such as airports), and the ability to attract rank and file employees who can live in nice houses on $90,000 per year. Of course some of that's temporary, so they often move again.

Clustering matters of course. Houston, Detroit, the main tech centers, the main finance centers, etc., can draw companies because of their existing workforces and synergies.

Each case is different and there are many factors of course.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The Metroplex has been vacuuming up corporate HQ for decades. Don't get it. Even people who like North Texas are kinda "meh" on Dallas-Ft. Worth. Yeah, it's relatively central, with good air connections, but same goes for other metros. It has to be the most characterless western first world metro of its size.

Also, Dallas suburbs have to be some of the ugliest in North America. The HQ folks really dream of a brown McMansion on a windswept, treeless, sunbaked lot, with a drainage ditch? Over Winnekta and Hinsdale? Don't get it.
Probably because this forum caters to the folks who specifically wouldn't be interested in moving to DFW suburbs.

Otherwise, DFW suburbs (what I call Southern Oklahoma) has pretty much everything a corporation or normal 30 year old corporate person would want. It doesn't appeal to you, but lots of people love the middle class suburbs with access to multiple "mixed use town centers".
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  #64  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:08 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
Otherwise, DFW suburbs (what I call Southern Oklahoma) has pretty much everything a corporation or normal 30 year old corporate person would want. It doesn't appeal to you, but lots of people love the middle class suburbs with access to multiple "mixed use town centers".
But these are HQ relocations. These aren't for "normal 30 yo corporate people". This is for the senior leadership, not low level workers looking for a cheap house.

I don't see what sort of lifestyle D-FW sprawl provides that wouldn't be available anywhere else in the U.S., except generally with nicer scenery and more non-sprawl fabric. Austin has some pretty sprawl, and Houston has heavily wooded sprawl, but Dallas sprawl is fugly.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:09 PM
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Why would Houston's start to drop? I assume you think the energy companies will lose value, but so far they continue to innovate. Look at crown castle that is the largest 5G installer in the nation. They used to only contract with oil companies. Then you have others like Academy which went public and entered the Fortune list. Plus Houston will still have the ability to be attractive for relocations and is a city that makes new companies that become valuable.
Will there be enough Crown Castles and Academys to make up for the energy transition?

I personally think we are in the midst of another O&G supercycle for the rest of the 2020s much like the one from ~2000-2014 until the commodity bust happened. But after that things will get dicey.

Also the hurricane and flooding issues hurt corporate relocations.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:13 PM
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But these are HQ relocations. These aren't for "normal 30 yo corporate persons". This is for the senior leadership, not low level workers looking for a cheap house.
Except it's not, DFW has a huge white collar/corporate workforce. Caterpillar might be just moving senior leadership there, but many corporations have large chunks of their workforce in DFW. Toyota moved their headquarters to DFW along with ~4000 employees. AT&T has ~5000 corporate workers and so on.....

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I don't see what sort of lifestyle D-FW sprawl provides that wouldn't be available anywhere else in the U.S., except generally with nicer scenery and more non-sprawl fabric.
And you will never understand. It's simple, people move to DFW for jobs. How many jobs has DFW added over the last decade?
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  #67  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:18 PM
edale edale is offline
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
Except it's not, DFW has a huge white collar/corporate workforce. Caterpillar might be just moving senior leadership there, but many corporations have large chunks of their workforce in DFW. Toyota moved their headquarters to DFW along with ~4000 employees. AT&T has ~5000 corporate workers and so on.....



And you will never understand. It's simple, people move to DFW for jobs. How many jobs has DFW added over the last decade?
Seems like a chicken or the egg scenario. People move to DFW for the jobs, but it's also claimed that the jobs are moving to DFW because of the workforce/people.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:18 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Toyota moved its North American HQ from a NKY suburb to Plano back in 2016 or thereabouts. That move actually made some sense since Delta moved its hub from Cincinnati to Detroit. But Chicago's air connections are similar if not better than Dallas's.

Meanwhile, Nissan moved its North American HQ to...suburban Nashville (across from a shopping mall). Nashville's never had a hub operation or international flights.

This is what's so frustrating about all of this - the Richard Florida, etc., predictions for cities only play out in some examples. There is always an example of success (or failure) in the exact opposite circumstance. There is no rhyme or reason to any of it.
Toyota's North America HQ wasn't in Kentucky. That was the Toyota Technical Center. The N.A. Toyota HQ was always in California until it moved to Plano.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:19 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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And you will never understand. It's simple, people move to DFW for jobs. How many jobs has DFW added over the last decade?
Right, but this is a circular argument. I'm asking why Caterpillar (and a host of other HQ) are moving HQ jobs to DFW. I don't think the answer is "bc there are jobs in DFW."

Fine, if people love sprawl, hate cities, hate anything built before 1990, don't want trees, hills, water, whatever, but why DFW specifically, when there are a whole host of U.S. metros with plentiful sprawl.

And DFW isn't all that cheap anymore. I do work with a firm in Flower Mound (an upscale Fort Worth suburb) and the homes aren't cheap. They're big, ugly boxes, but the prices people pay would get you a nice home in CA or NY.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The Metroplex has been vacuuming up corporate HQ for decades. Don't get it. Even people who like North Texas are kinda "meh" on Dallas-Ft. Worth. Yeah, it's relatively central, with good air connections, but same goes for other metros. It has to be the most characterless western first world metro of its size.
DFW has been good at attracting manufacturing HQs, but not much else. Unless I'm missing something. DFW poached Comerica from Detroit over a decade ago, but I can't think of any other big knowledge industry relocations to there.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:24 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Seems like a chicken or the egg scenario. People move to DFW for the jobs, but it's also claimed that the jobs are moving to DFW because of the workforce/people.
That seems to be how hubs are formed. DFW has had decades of policies turning itself into a 21st version of a Chicago-esque business hub.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:28 PM
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Right, but this is a circular argument. I'm asking why Caterpillar (and a host of other HQ) are moving HQ jobs to DFW. I don't think the answer is "bc there are jobs in DFW."
How do you think business hubs form? NYC didn't turn into business hub and financial capitol of America overnight.

Quote:
Fine, if people love sprawl, hate cities, hate anything built before 1990, don't want trees, hills, water, whatever, but why DFW specifically, when there are a whole host of U.S. metros with plentiful sprawl.
I'm not saying the truth doesn't hurt in the context of an urban forum.

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And DFW isn't all that cheap anymore. I do work with a firm in Flower Mound (an upscale Fort Worth suburb) and the homes aren't cheap. They're big, ugly boxes, but the prices people pay would get you a nice home in CA or NY.
It's not cheap anymore, but I think there is a price difference between buying a home in good, safe neighborhood with good schools.

There are smaller corporate hubs emerging, but they are also outside of traditionally urban regions.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post

And DFW isn't all that cheap anymore.
No it is not.

In fact, DFW now has a 25% higher ZHVI than Chicagoland.

Coastal folks might still look at Dallas as "cheap", but these days, no one moves from the Midwest to Texas looking for cheaper homes like they might've done 2 - 3 decades ago. That equation has completely inverted itself.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
How do you think business hubs form? NYC didn't turn into business hub and financial capitol of America overnight.
NYC didn't become the economic and financial capital of America by poaching companies from other cities.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 9:07 PM
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NYC didn't become the economic and financial capital of America by poaching companies from other cities.
Regardless of the different growth environment and history of the metros it’s a snowball effect.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 9:27 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
Regardless of the different growth environment and history of the metros it’s a snowball effect.
Hmm... Not sure I agree. I guess L.A. might've proven out the growth by acquisition strategy, but it clearly has its limits. The cities with the healthiest economies are those that can incubate their own industries from scratch.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
Regardless of the different growth environment and history of the metros it’s a snowball effect.
Certainly, the growth experience of Southern California is unique. It has never really been a HQ magnet, and the few HQs it has seem to relocate to Texas, but it manages to have 15-20 million people between LA, Riverside and San Diego.

Many of these HQs and job clustering moves seem to hurt more of the smaller areas rather than big metros. CAT used to be in Peoria and were planning to build a new HQ there and then moved to suburban Chicago. Deere was in Moline, a small IL city, but moved to Chicago. Walmart and Berkshire Hathaway are still in the small metro areas and are doing well, but I can't really think of many big companies still in a smaller metro area under 1 million.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 9:47 PM
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Hmm... Not sure I agree. I guess L.A. might've proven out the growth by acquisition strategy, but it clearly has its limits. The cities with the healthiest economies are those that can incubate their own industries from scratch.
Didn’t the West Coast benefit greatly from WW2 and Cold War spending? Seems like the Bay Area benefitted greatly from defense spending and research into semiconductors. Southern California had aerospace, especially due to the Cold War.

DFW got a big boost from telecommunications due to the Cold War.

Perhaps “old America” like the Midwest and Northeast can claim they incubated their industries from scratch. But obviously growth and development occurs in super cycles.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 10:35 PM
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Deere was in Moline, a small IL city, but moved to Chicago.
Deere is still HQ'd out of Moline.

They never moved to Chicago.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 16, 2022 at 12:00 AM.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2022, 10:37 PM
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Walmart and Berkshire Hathaway are still in the small metro areas and are doing well, but I can't really think of many big companies still in a smaller metro area under 1 million.
Ohio's smaller cities actually have quite a few big companies still, despite many relocations over the years.

Fortune 1000 Companies in Ohio's >1 million metros
Toledo: 5 (3 Fortune 500)
Akron: 4 (2 Fortune 500)
Canton: 2
Findlay: 1 (Fortune 500)
Wooster: 1 (Fortune 500)
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