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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 6:05 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Covid has showed us the system performed just fine with everyone at home and most had a taste of the benefits and convenience of WFH and going back in the office won't be the same as before. Despite the positives of working side-by-side with co-workers.
Im a weirdo that likes the office but based on my social circle we are a small minority. Most of the people wo can WFH love it in my experience.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 6:25 PM
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BBC News

Elon Musk declares end to remote working at Tesla
People who are unwilling to abide by the new rules can "pretend to work somewhere else"
He's way too emotional.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
You can pull the fallacy of strawmaning the poster but in my anecdotal experience the middle-low end employees who have commutes are really pushing to extend their WFH (which was reduced last year to 2 or 3 days a week depending on seniority)

Especially once gas practically doubled here since February. We are letting a few of our good hourly's who've expressed money concerns and long commutes stay full time home for now. Some of our staff with families can have horrifyingly long commutes.
Strawmaning? Either you don't understand what that term means or you don't understand the intent of the post you quoted. mrnyc wasn't making any argument other than that everyone already knows (or ought to know) what the article is describing and it seems quaint for the stodgy, out of touch legacy media to be reporting it as "news."

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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
People value having larger cheaper homes more than their time. Thats why the nicest areas are far out exurbs and close in older rich neighborhoods where you pay a premium.

The lower classes and middle class are forced due to circumstance to live in tiny urban apartments or the suburban sprawl so they can have some semblance of a house for their families.


You see suburbs in Europe too but Europe has bene fully urbanized for centuries and most of the USA and Canada was wilderness until the 1930's

Arguably most of Canada is still wilderness (its just useless tundra people cant live in)

If Europe had been mostly empty at the time cars were invented Europe would also have sprawl. Just like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Mexico etc all do. Any decently wealthy country that developed in modern times.
Your assertion that Europe's more urban development pattern is different from NA due solely to it being "built out" prior to cars is just false. Much of Europe was on a trajectory to suburbanize prior to the oil crisis of the 70s and likely would have gone down the same path as NA had they not intentionally changed course. Cars were invented in the late 1800s and popularized in the early 20th century but the US didn't become auto-centeric until the post-war era in response to intentional planning decisions such as the national interstate system and local/regional zoning policies along. Plus, there was institutional guidance of banks who favoured suburban settings for investment (individual mortgages and developer financing) while denying it from many urban locations (red-lining). So the fact that suburbainzation didn't start as soon as cars were invented and the presence of these other factors shows it isn't the existence of cars that made auto-centrism somehow inevitable.

And obviously it's equally possible for a city with an established historic core to be redeveloped in such a way that the urban fabric is cleared for parking and highways because there are many examples of this in NA. So simply being an established urban city with a dense fabric doesn't prevent that from changing. Plus, western Europe's population grew by over 60% since the early 20th century and many European cities had to rebuilt due to war damage regardless.

It's very common for proponents of the status quo to present it as "inevitable" and pretend that it isn't actually the result of active decision making since that tricks people into thinking things can't be changed with different policy and therefore they shouldn't try. But it isn't true. Urban development patterns are a result of human decisions that we can choose to reverse and not just inevitable outcomes of historical circumstances that we have to accept.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 6:32 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Strawmaning?



Your assertion that Europe's more urban development pattern is different from NA due solely to it being "built out" prior to cars is just false. Much of Europe was on a trajectory to suburbanize prior to the oil crisis of the 70s .
Apparently you don't know what strawmaning is LMAO

And ive narrowed your quote to the crux of complete and total nonsense. Europe as a continent was living at extremely high densities in walkable urban environments for centuries. They never were moving on a path towards suburbanization en mass, the land, cost, financing, oil prices etc none of it was in place to allow for the kind of suburbanization that occurred in North America Auz etc. There was no available land to buy and suburbanize on it was all owned or occupied at that point for many many long decades by old old families and interests.

It simply never would have happened, where it could, it did. There was no policy decision or a single factor like the cost of gas in 1974 that ended European suburbanization (which would have been well along by that point 30 years post war and it obviously was not). Not sure where you got this idea but its completely unrealistic.

Suburbanization as it was even 50 years ago could not happen in the USA due to how much more constrained the land is today vs then vs 1940 and its still very much wide open in a way Europe has not been since ??? Idk 1400? after 1/3 of the pop died.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 6:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Covid has showed us the system performed just fine with everyone at home and most had a taste of the benefits and convenience of WFH and going back in the office won't be the same as before. Despite the positives of working side-by-side with co-workers.
I wouldn't call "just fine". Results would be better defined as mixed. Hence, many companies have been announcing full or partial comebacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Im a weirdo that likes the office but based on my social circle we are a small minority. Most of the people wo can WFH love it in my experience.
Most people prefer working less, specially when they reached the place they wanted on the organization, with no desire to grow. So it's not that surprising most employees will prefer WFH.

-------------------------

Interestingly in Brazil, since day 1, everybody called WFH, "home office", in a country where less than 1% speaks intermediate English or above. Many even use an annoying English pronunciation for it.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
What? If people who work in the 'burbs can head into the city for work than people in the city can head to the 'burbs for work, and people can commute from 'burb to 'burb. I see it everyday, as Philly has a ton of reverse commuters. And our metro is large and functions like other decentralized places and there's lots of people commuting from suburb to suburb.
But no, that’s not true at all. Or at least you’re missing the point.

City transportation networks have been build mostly to funnel people from sprawling suburbs into an urban core. You may drive to the suburban train station, but when you get off the train you can walk to work (or connect to another form of public transportation like subway or bus).

If you have a reverse commute, you generally have to drive, unless your suburban office is a TOD along a rail line (which is not generally the case). And suburb-to-suburb commutes almost invariably require private cars and lots of traffic.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I know many people who have lived in Urban centers and commuted out to suburban office parks, Myself being one of them.
But you have to waste many hours in a car to do so. It’s even more stupid than going the other way.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 9:42 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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But you have to waste many hours in a car to do so. It’s even more stupid than going the other way.
Its no different than commuting in? We were young and wanted to live in fun urban neighborhoods while our offices put us in suburban parks that you had to drive too.

We would willingly drive to work and back so our nights and weekends could be in the neighborhood we liked.

Even now I live north of downtown in a moderately urban neighborhood and drive 25 mins to a secondary business node in a suburb. Would I prefer no commute? sure but im more picky about the area I want to live/own property and ill deal with the drive if I need too.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
I wouldn't call "just fine". Results would be better defined as mixed. Hence, many companies have been announcing full or partial comebacks.
I think having to justify buildings and leases has a lot to do with companies wanting their workers back. At least in the near term. Again, I think in office has it benefits but Covid has shown companies can function when workers are remote plus WFH broadens the talent pool.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I think having to justify buildings and leases has a lot to do with companies wanting their workers back. At least in the near term. Again, I think in office has it benefits but Covid has shown companies can function when workers are remote plus WFH broadens the talent pool.
I believe it could be a win-win situation. As it seems companies tend not liking WFH that much, but many workers got used to it, maybe they can keep part of the workforce that way and paying more for people who don't mind to go to the office.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 10:56 PM
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We have to remember why folks commute in the first place. For one, depending on what you do... the job you have or even opportunities(s) might not be in a city. Also, some cities are expensive.

With the way the U.S. is built, there are a ton of jobs in the suburbs or in say locations that are deemed inner-ring suburbs. Not within the actual core of some city.

But yeah... in an ideal urbanist world, everyone would live in cities with nice transit options but we have to face reality.

The real issue comes down to affordability. That is driving a lot of your suburban growth versus urban growth. Affordability and also retention and by retention, retaining people that have kids. The issue with that becomes affordability.

And with that said, some people will do an hour each way, say they work 5 days, 10 hours a week if it means not paying 40-50% of ones income, maybe only 30% on say housing, because in the end, it comes down to what can aid "X" persons family more.

Aside from that, quality of life issues are on peoples minds as well. Crime, traffic, and some people don't like people. That exists and so they migrate to less dense areas.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 11:13 PM
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The crime factor (and the rise in homelessness in many US cities in recent years) is part of the story as well. Assaults and crimes on municipal bus and transit systems have gotten a lot of attention in the US. These kinds of things have a negative effect on attempts at 'back to the office' policies for downtown employers. Companies (generally) don't want their employees to be attacked/assaulted/robbed/suffer car-break-ins/etc., nor do the employees want to suffer through those things, either.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 11:31 PM
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The crime factor (and the rise in homelessness in many US cities in recent years) is part of the story as well. Assaults and crimes on municipal bus and transit systems have gotten a lot of attention in the US. These kinds of things have a negative effect on attempts at 'back to the office' policies for downtown employers. Companies (generally) don't want their employees to be attacked/assaulted/robbed/suffer car-break-ins/etc., nor do the employees want to suffer through those things, either.
It's far more dangerous to ride in a private vehicle than on public transit. And car break-ins affect drivers, not transit users, and would be most common where cars predominate.

So this theory makes no sense, unless you're talking alt-right brainwashing narratives.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
BBC News

Elon Musk declares end to remote working at Tesla
People who are unwilling to abide by the new rules can "pretend to work somewhere else"
Elon is saying the same applies to SpaceX . . . and presumably to Twitter if he does take it over. That will really upset people because until now Twitter's entire workforce was told they could work from home.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I know many people who have lived in Urban centers and commuted out to suburban office parks, Myself being one of them.
Pedestrian did this same reverse commute pattern for many decades as well. Commuting from DTSF to Concord via BART. Not sure how he got from the BART station to the Naval Weapons Station though. Maybe bike or shuttle?
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I think having to justify buildings and leases has a lot to do with companies wanting their workers back. At least in the near term. Again, I think in office has it benefits but Covid has shown companies can function when workers are remote plus WFH broadens the talent pool.
I have seen numerous employer references to "the serendipitous interactions" that occur in the office but not when people are at home. And on the other hand, in San Francisco I haven't seen anything that seems like a reluctance to put space out for sublease by companies determined to go to hybrid or WFH schedules.

But if, indeed, as so many are predicting, the Fed is going to force us into recession to control inflation, it remains to be seen whether workers threatening to quit if forced to come to the office will remain in control as jobs disappear.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2022, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Its no different than commuting in? We were young and wanted to live in fun urban neighborhoods while our offices put us in suburban parks that you had to drive too.

We would willingly drive to work and back so our nights and weekends could be in the neighborhood we liked.

Even now I live north of downtown in a moderately urban neighborhood and drive 25 mins to a secondary business node in a suburb. Would I prefer no commute? sure but im more picky about the area I want to live/own property and ill deal with the drive if I need too.
You kind of bring up a point that some people are willing to commute far if they like where they live.

When I was young, I worked in Hollywood, and I had a coworker who commuted to Hollywood from fricking Laguna Beach, but he felt it was worth the drive, because "I like coming home to Laguna Beach." Another coworker lived in Malibu and was willing to make the commute because he loved living in Malibu.

Myself, I like being in the office, but maybe it's because my job is only 8 miles away... 20 minute drive in the morning, 30 minute drive going home in the afternoon---1 hour both ways by bus, which involves 1 transfer; it used to be a one seat ride/one bus before the pandemic screwed up bus schedules/canceled some bus lines. For me, the idea of working from home doesn't sound appealing at all; work is work and home is home. I like that I can leave my work at work and not have to worry about it at home. I don't even THINK about work when I'm at home. Fuck having to work at home.

As an aside from the topic, do some of you think WFH opens up employer abuse? My partner already knows 3 people at his job who were working from home and sick with COVID, but were still required to clock in and work from home. FUCK that! I think that's disgusting of his company to make those people still work. That's what PSL is for, I would think that violates California labor law.

My partner, who is still WFH (though a month ago, his employer now makes him go to the office one day a week), has been called by a few of his co-workers while on his breaks, but didn't answer the phone. And then later on he gets a call "Why didn't you answer your phone??" It's like well bitch I was on my break. Again, your breaks are supposed to be uninterrupted. FUCK answering the phone!!
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2022, 12:47 AM
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Only hyper controlling manager types like being in the office. These types are generally extremely narcissistic, need to control others, and are losers outside of work. They thrive on telling others what to do and are normally old and ugly.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2022, 12:55 AM
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^ Well, that's generalizing nonsense.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2022, 1:08 AM
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I’d argue no one likes to be in the office. People go there because they’re paid to.
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