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  #61  
Old Posted May 29, 2022, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
They aren't bikes if there is a motor attached. Bikes are purely mechanical.
imagine a bicycle with a purely mechanical system that you could use to wind a spring manually on descents (think giant wind up pocket watch) and then release the stored power for assist at some point later. would this count as a bicycle in your mind? brb, going to send my idea to colin furze
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  #62  
Old Posted May 29, 2022, 8:39 PM
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It's really weird that their scoring system includes precipitation but not weather nor topography.

Either you go with "how well does each city do the job of turning the cards they were dealt into the best possible hand for favoring commuting by bike" and you ignore precipitation and weather and hills, or else you go with "how favorable of an environment is each city for cycling", in which case the raw numbers of actual cycling commuters are a pretty damn good proxy for that, no need for much analysis.

Flat city with year-round mild dry weather, but that doesn't bother about bike lanes = ranks good or bad?

Super-hilly city that's always rainy in summer and frigid with tons of snow in winter but whose municipal councils have done the absolute max to favor cycling = ranks good or bad?

I'm getting the feeling that this study was aiming for the latter, but then they messed it up by including precipitation in the score.
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  #63  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 6:26 AM
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Imo, the best bike city that I have lived in is Oakland, which is, largely, flat, has pretty good bike infrastructure, and is compact enough that you never have to go that far.

Idk, just my 2c.
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  #64  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SFBruin View Post
Imo, the best bike city that I have lived in is Oakland, which is, largely, flat, has pretty good bike infrastructure, and is compact enough that you never have to go that far.

Idk, just my 2c.

It’s probably the most biker friendly city, too. Gangs of them. Lol
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  #65  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
There was an asshole back in Utica yesterday who rode their in the middle of a fairly busy commercial route holding up the flow of traffic. That shouldn't be allowed. Small streets absolutely but bikes have no business on main roads with the most traffic.
In NYC bikes are expected to share almost all of the roads with vehicular traffic. The general exception are freeways and bridges. NYC's laws are actually more traditional, since car only streets are mostly a thing of the postwar era.
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  #66  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
That's not true. There's no official or authoritative demarcation criteria that specifies assist devices are excluded in the term.

When I did a search for "bike definition" just now, these were the first definitions that came up (bold emphasis added by me):

Wikipedia: A bicycle, also called a pedal cycle, bike or cycle, is a human-powered or motor-powered assisted, pedal-driven, single-track vehicle, having two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other. A bicycle rider is called a cyclist, or bicyclist.

Wordnik.com: A vehicle consisting of a light frame mounted on two wire-spoked wheels one behind the other and having a seat, handlebars for steering, brakes, and two pedals or a small motor by which it is driven.

Dictionary.com: a vehicle with two wheels in tandem, usually propelled by pedals connected to the rear wheel by a chain, and having handlebars for steering and a saddlelike seat.

But of course dictionaries track how words are used rather than determining how they should be used. They regularly add words and update definitions in response to changes in language as all languages and the word definitions within it evolve over time. Not surprisingly the newer, more online-focused sources, include assisted devices on the definitions, while older legacy dictionaries are more likely to just mention pedal power since the popularity of ebikes is a fairly recent phenomenon.
There is policy that differentiates them. Just about everywhere, a "bicycle" is a pedal powered two-wheeled vehicle . An "e-bike" is a motor assisted pedaled two-wheeled vehicle. There are all types of laws and policies that draw a distinction between the two.

I would accept that e-bike is a category of bike if we had common terminology to identify non e-bikes. We don't. We only have common language to distinguish electric bikes from bikes. Therefore, an electric bike is not a bike. It is an electric bike (or e-bike).
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  #67  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 4:02 PM
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You managed to dig a pretty big hole for yourself there, iheartthed. If you lived in Detroit, you could probably build yourself a First Subway station.
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  #68  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
There is policy that differentiates them. Just about everywhere, a "bicycle" is a pedal powered two-wheeled vehicle . An "e-bike" is a motor assisted pedaled two-wheeled vehicle. There are all types of laws and policies that draw a distinction between the two.

I would accept that e-bike is a category of bike if we had common terminology to identify non e-bikes. We don't. We only have common language to distinguish electric bikes from bikes. Therefore, an electric bike is not a bike. It is an electric bike (or e-bike).
Most places actually don't have separate policies for them once they're sold (unless we're talking about the moped style models). They only have policies for their manufacture such as that the motor can only assist up to a certain speed (usually either 25 or 32 km/h). There are also certain policy differences with electric cars as well such as that some jurisdictions require them to make noise at low speeds to warm pedestrians of their approach or that they're allowed in certain parking spots or in HOV lanes with only a single driver when ICE cars aren't. In other words, they're a sub category of cars and therefore cars.
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  #69  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 4:27 PM
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Ironically enough, the main focus of the design and manufacture requirements for ebikes is to allow them to continue to meet the criteria to be classed as bicycles. Bikes with too much power or too high an assisted speed are instead classified as mopeds or motorcycles. So those laws actually represent a dividing line between "bike" and "not-bike".
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  #70  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cabasse View Post
imagine a bicycle with a purely mechanical system that you could use to wind a spring manually on descents (think giant wind up pocket watch) and then release the stored power for assist at some point later. would this count as a bicycle in your mind? brb, going to send my idea to colin furze
Sounds like this makes my ride harder while I'm "winding" the system! If you let me wind it on a stand at home, then release it during the ride, I might go along with it.

On the hill issue and e-bike issue...I'm conflicted, but will downgrade my hilly city of Seattle for this reason. I ride a regular bike recreationally, an do hills to a point. But hills are a real disincentive for some destinations. To consider this city broadly bikeable for regular use (no shower required) means using a regular bike for certain trips and an e-bike for others.

That said, this city offers stunning rides, and many are mostly flat because they're on waterfronts, in valleys, or on our flatish linear hilltops. Often you're right next to water or in the trees. The floating bridges on Lake Washington open up a variety of half-lake-loop options for example. While I'd lower our "bike friendly" grade for hills, I'd raise it for the scenery.
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  #71  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
In NYC bikes are expected to share almost all of the roads with vehicular traffic. The general exception are freeways and bridges. NYC's laws are actually more traditional, since car only streets are mostly a thing of the postwar era.
That's a little different in NYC; cars rarely go past 2nd or 3rd gear on most streets and much of the city relies on alternate transportation. It's often faster to get around bike there.
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  #72  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 5:44 AM
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Yeah, biking among cars in a urban city is much safer than doing it on a stroad in a suburban area. Cars have to go slower, which helps prevents a lot of accidents.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 3:04 AM
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I have only biked in three cities. Chicago, Boston and Milwaukee. All three are good for biking. I have never had a bad experience with drivers or anything. I have only biked Boston a few times last summer and this summer I will be back there through August for more. Milwaukee I have limited experience but never had an issue. Chicago is where I have biked about 99% of my time.

At first I assumed it was luck that I never had aggressive car drivers but it has been a few years now. I think that is just the way it is. Car drivers have been great respecting me, though I wish I could say the same for my fellow bike riders and their respect for rules and others.

The weather has been great here lately and this weekend I took full advantage. Also in Chicago there are over 600 shared bike stations, Divvy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divvy, which are very convenient to get somewhere and maybe Uber home late. Most of my biking is on some cheap bike that is about ten years old. Now they have these E bike charging stations though limited and just starting seem intriguing.

And Chicago is flat! Though winters aren't appealing to bike haha
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  #74  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 4:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pip View Post
I have only biked in three cities. Chicago, Boston and Milwaukee. All three are good for biking. I have never had a bad experience with drivers or anything. I have only biked Boston a few times last summer and this summer I will be back there through August for more. Milwaukee I have limited experience but never had an issue. Chicago is where I have biked about 99% of my time.

At first I assumed it was luck that I never had aggressive car drivers but it has been a few years now. I think that is just the way it is. Car drivers have been great respecting me, though I wish I could say the same for my fellow bike riders and their respect for rules and others.

The weather has been great here lately and this weekend I took full advantage. Also in Chicago there are over 600 shared bike stations, Divvy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divvy, which are very convenient to get somewhere and maybe Uber home late. Most of my biking is on some cheap bike that is about ten years old. Now they have these E bike charging stations though limited and just starting seem intriguing.

And Chicago is flat! Though winters aren't appealing to bike haha
Boston, at least when I lived there, had the insane habit of removing their bikeshare stations in winter.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2022, 2:23 PM
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Boston, at least when I lived there, had the insane habit of removing their bikeshare stations in winter.
They are year round in Boston. There are some on street bike stations that are removed for winter snow removal.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2022, 6:05 PM
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Study: Cycling is 10x More Important Than Electric Cars For Reaching Net Zero
By Christian Brand
Jun 3, 2022

Globally, only one in 50 new cars were fully electric in 2020, and one in 14 in the UK. [Editor’s note: in the U.S., it’s roughly one in 17.] Sounds impressive, but even if all new cars were electric now, it would still take 15-20 years to replace the world’s fossil fuel car fleet.

The emissions savings from replacing all those internal combustion engines with zero-carbon alternatives will not feed in fast enough to make the necessary difference in the time we can spare: the next five years. Tackling the climate and air pollution crises requires curbing all motorised transport, particularly private cars, as quickly as possible. Focusing solely on electric vehicles is slowing down the race to zero emissions.

This is partly because electric cars aren’t truly zero-carbon – mining the raw materials for their batteries, manufacturing them and generating the electricity they run on produces emissions.

Transport is one of the most challenging sectors to decarbonise due to its heavy fossil fuel use and reliance on carbon-intensive infrastructure – such as roads, airports and the vehicles themselves – and the way it embeds car-dependent lifestyles. One way to reduce transport emissions relatively quickly, and potentially globally, is to swap cars for cycling, e-biking and walking – active travel, as it’s called.

Active travel is cheaper, healthier, better for the environment, and no slower on congested urban streets. So how much carbon can it save on a daily basis? And what is its role in reducing emissions from transport overall?

In new research, colleagues and I reveal that people who walk or cycle have lower carbon footprints from daily travel, including in cities where lots of people are already doing this. Despite the fact that some walking and cycling happens on top of motorised journeys instead of replacing them, more people switching to active travel would equate to lower carbon emissions from transport on a daily and trip-by-trip basis.

We observed around 4,000 people living in London, Antwerp, Barcelona, Vienna, Orebro, Rome and Zurich. Over a two-year period, our participants completed 10,000 travel diary entries which served as records of all the trips they made each day, whether going to work by train, taking the kids to school by car or riding the bus into town. For each trip, we calculated the carbon footprint.

Strikingly, people who cycled on a daily basis had 84% lower carbon emissions from all their daily travel than those who didn’t.

We also found that the average person who shifted from car to bike for just one day a week cut their carbon footprint by 3.2kg of CO? – equivalent to the emissions from driving a car for 10km, eating a serving of lamb or chocolate, or sending 800 emails.

When we compared the life cycle of each travel mode, taking into account the carbon generated by making the vehicle, fuelling it and disposing of it, we found that emissions from cycling can be more than 30 times lower for each trip than driving a fossil fuel car, and about ten times lower than driving an electric one.
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/06/...hing-net-zero/
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  #77  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2022, 6:47 PM
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^ That's not surprising really. Car electrification is good and important but it shouldn't be allowed to overshadow the importance of walkability and active transportation or the need to reduce auto-dependence.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2022, 6:53 PM
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Eating a serving of lamb is the equivalent of driving 10km? That's wild.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2022, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Eating a serving of lamb is the equivalent of driving 10km? That's wild.
I'm guessing it's taking into account the amount of resources needed to raise lamb as livestock. Cows/beef is another big one.

There's a great documentary on Amazon Prime Video called Clarkson's Farm that goes into the detail of sheep farming.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2022, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
^ That's not surprising really. Car electrification is good and important but it shouldn't be allowed to overshadow the importance of walkability and active transportation or the need to reduce auto-dependence.
Yes, and the need to generate electricity from sources other than fossil fuel generated plants.

That is my main objection to the electric car promoters. We are lucky in Quebec that nearly a hundred percent of our power is from renewable sources, but the world is not a level playing field in the energy game.
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