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  #61  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 10:31 PM
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ChiSoxRox ChiSoxRox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
anyway, here are the 1M+ US MSAs ranked by current ZHVI:

(the 10 cities from the dude's "underrated" list are bolded)
  1. San Jose: $1,710,404
  2. San Francisco: $1,489,691
  3. Los Angeles: $932,783
  4. San Diego: $923,350
  5. Honolulu: $916,366
  6. Seattle: $791,933
  7. Boston: $649,034
  8. Denver: $639,316
  9. Sacramento: $616,124
  10. Salt Lake City: $602,765
  11. New York: $600,354
  12. Austin: $594,441
  13. Portland: $581,400
  14. Riverside: $578,174
  15. Washington: $550,917
  16. Phoenix: $466,170
  17. Raleigh: $445,219
  18. Providence: $438,168
  19. Las Vegas: $437,478
  20. Nashville: $433,158
  21. Miami: $430,068

*snip*
Before seeing the numbers, I would have pegged NYC below the California cities -- but ahead of Seattle or Denver. Seeing NYC outside the top 10, I fully understand now why it made the original list.
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Last edited by ChiSoxRox; May 25, 2022 at 10:32 PM. Reason: unbreak the list
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  #62  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 10:54 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox View Post
Before seeing the numbers, I would have pegged NYC below the California cities -- but ahead of Seattle or Denver. Seeing NYC outside the top 10, I fully understand now why it made the original list.
I guess if you put it that way NYC is a downright bargain. It's far and away the most urban city in the US (a huge gap between 1st and 2nd) but not in the top 10 for ZHVI, and below cities like Denver and Salt Lake City.
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  #63  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 11:16 PM
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Though to be fair, these aren't apples-apples. A huge portion of for-sale units in the NY area are coops, and you can't compare coop prices to condo prices (and certainly not to SFH prices).

There are coops costing basically nothing that have insane carrying charges. And income restricted coops. Both are functionally more like rentals, and the sales price is largely irrelevant. Coops are so dominant bc new condos were basically illegal until around 1970, and condo conversions were functionally illegal until 15 years ago.

In NYC, 90% of the time, an older for-sale unit is a coop unit. In the suburbs, maybe 75% of the time.

If you compared SFH to SFH, and covered all costs (taxes, utilities, transfer costs, etc.) you'd likely have a different ranking.
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  #64  
Old Posted May 26, 2022, 1:00 AM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
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^ Zillow also calculates the ZHVI exclusively for just SFHs at the metro level too.

it doesn't move the needle anywhere near as much as you might expect.

metro denver SFH ZHVI: $664,633

metro salt lake city SFH ZHVI: $625,297

metro new york SFH ZHVI: $609,442



with the exception of a few outliers like san jose (where it jumps by over $100K), going from total ZHVI to SFH-only ZHVI seems to only tack on an extra $5K - $30K for most metros. and i think that's primarily because the regular ZHVI already really tries to zero in on the cost of a "typical" home in a given market by throwing out the top and bottom tiers altogether.

if i get around to it, i'll post the full SFH ZHVI list tomorrow, but from a cursory look at the figures, it won't change the relative rankings significantly.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 26, 2022 at 1:11 AM.
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  #65  
Old Posted May 26, 2022, 4:13 AM
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There was talk about the quality and affordability of housing in the Bronx, and specifically the Concourse area and down by Yankee Stadium--but Zillow shows almost nothing for sale in those areas except entire buildings. Isn't the Concourse still mostly rentals?
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  #66  
Old Posted May 26, 2022, 4:52 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
There was talk about the quality and affordability of housing in the Bronx, and specifically the Concourse area and down by Yankee Stadium--but Zillow shows almost nothing for sale in those areas except entire buildings. Isn't the Concourse still mostly rentals?
The Concourse (the street itself, and immediate side streets) is mostly Coops, not rentals. StreetEasy, not Zillow, is the main NYC RE aggregator. Zillow isn't really a thing locally. The general West Bronx is overwhelmingly rentals, but the art deco buildings are mostly Coop.

I'm seeing plenty of cheap Coops available in the Concourse:
https://streeteasy.com/for-sale/nyc/...ea:211,210,248

But again, with Coops, you need to look at costs, not really sale price. What are the monthly costs and are there restrictions on eventual sale? The really cheap ones probably have income restrictions and sales restrictions.

The ultra cheap ones seem to be in Highbridge, which was where Joker was filmed (the steps, apartment building, and subway stop), and which is barely gentrified.
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  #67  
Old Posted May 26, 2022, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
It was a 1970s downtown revitalization scheme... a "transitway mall" to combat suburbanization of commercial activity. And doing it underground downtown was too costly.

It ended up only helping to hasten the demise of downtown retailers, by only making it more difficult for people to drive and park and patronize downtown establishments. Trends were against its success from the start, yet they still tried with way-too-late efforts like this to "save downtown".
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Originally Posted by Antares41 View Post
I agree with this Buffalo is a bit more intact then many peoples perception. And there is some real efforts to bring development back into neglected communities. Buffalo city boundaries are small(<50 sq. mi.) So even a little sprucing here and there has a significant impact, nevertheless, still a lot to be done.
Yeah, Buffalo made a bunch of mistakes. Building the light rail while the population decline was already kicked into high gear, and then not being able to get any funding for any future expansions to get people from the suburbs to take the train. Turning Main St. into a pedestrian mall for most of its entire length in the downtown core was another one.

Metro rail ends at the UB south campus on the border with Buffalo and its largest suburb, Amherst (pop ~130k).
It was planned to be expanded to UB north, the airport, and future expansions to the "Tonawandas" suburbs and the "Southtowns".

Buffalo only has 40 sq miles of land, so the 17,000 residents added since 2010 is quite noticeable, with many people rehabbing SFH properties, downtown lofts, new apartments, some apartments now turning condo.
The restaurant/craft cocktails, craft brewery, craft distillery scene is light years ahead of 15-20 years ago.

Buffalo has always had a strong arts and theatre scene.

The Albright-Knox art museum is now undergoing a huge $170M expansion and will be rechristened Albright-Knox-Gundlach thanks to the $62M donation from ex-pat Buffalonian now "bond king Billionaire" Jeffrey Gundlach
Video Link


Buffalo
2010: 261,310
2020: 278,349

Erie County
2010: 919,040
2020: 954,236

Niagara County
2012: 216,469
2020: 212,666
Buffalo-Niagara MSA (Erie+Niagara counties) 2020: 1,166,902

Both the city of Buffalo and Erie County have noticeable growth for the first time in decades, whereas Niagara county (where Niagara Falls is located) is still suffering from decline. Inner city Niagara Falls continues to empty out while the Niagara county suburbs still continue to sprawl.

Huge developments include relocating UB Medical school to a new $375M building downtown, and many new structures on the Buffalo-Niagara Medical campus, which may be the largest cluster of employment outside of the CBD itself which is directly south of the medical campus.

The $120M rehab by DC-based Douglas Development of the former HSBC tower into Seneca One and an additional $58M HQ of M&T Bank's technology campus, along with other tech companies, 100+ apartments, etc. in the tower is another huge win. The building went from completely vacant to now having $178M+ of investments to transform it into a viable mixed-use building with over 2,000 people working in the tower.

Buffalo based M&T Bank will go from the #26 largest US bank by assets to around #15-16 with the recent acquisition of People's United Financial.
A $200B+ juggernaut.

TL;DR

Buffalo is no longer the butt of jokes. The Queen City of the Great Lakes is coming back.
Buffalo always had "good bones", now most of the chips are falling into place in the 2020s.

Last edited by Wigs; May 28, 2022 at 1:23 AM.
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  #68  
Old Posted May 28, 2022, 8:39 PM
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Great to see Buffalo adding population again.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2022, 2:21 AM
CaliNative CaliNative is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Crawford gonna lose his shit when he sees Chicago at #1!

1. Chicago
2. Philly
3. Pittsburgh
4. New Orleans
5. Cleveland
6. Buffalo
7. Milwaukee
8. St. Louis
9. Minneapolis
10. New york


The general overall theme: most americans now hate cold winters, so most cities that are actual cities with cold winters do well in this dude's eyes because Americans don't want to live in them anymore, making them more affordable relative to cities that have more mild year round climates. New Orleans is the only city on his list that doesn't regularly see snow every winter.

The only city I expected to see here that wasn't is Cincinnati.


And before anyone gets too bent outta shape about the list, the dude goes out of his way at the beginning to drive home the point that this all extremely subjective stuff and that his criteria for making this ranking was in no way meant to be objective.
Some of those cities are very sketchy in terms of crime. But I guess all U.S. cities are today. Some are at the top of the lists on a per capita basis. Crime matters in terms of livability.

Last edited by CaliNative; Jun 9, 2022 at 7:54 AM.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2022, 2:27 AM
CaliNative CaliNative is offline
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Originally Posted by tdawg View Post
Great to see Buffalo adding population again.
Being close to Canada and Toronto gives a boost to Buff. Water availability too. Buff on the way up. Housing still affordable as well.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2022, 5:14 PM
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Antares41 Antares41 is offline
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Originally Posted by CaliNative View Post
Being close to Canada and Toronto gives a boost to Buff. Water availability too. Buff on the way up. Housing still affordable as well.
Yes abundant water (an increasingly valuable asset) and affordable housing are big pluses for Buffalo and the surrounding counties. The proximity to Canada is most noticeable in retail sales. Lots of Canadians shop in the greater Buffalo area especially when the exchange USD/CD rates are favorable to Canadians.

However the border restrictions due to the pandemic was a real economic blow to that metric, but with the lifting of restrictions, I do expect it to rebound slowly. There probably other benefits, but the abundance of Ontario license plate is the most visible evidence of the connection.

Otherwise the border is still a significant barrier to any sense of a regional cohesiveness. Even more so post- 9/11. Prior to that a drivers license was all you needed to cross the border, thus, cross border travel was inherently more frequent then.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2022, 8:44 PM
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Buffalo is very underrated and glad it's seeing a turnaround. A lot of Upstate cities are but I think given Buffalo's size and proximity to Canada, it has the most potential. I think Tesla opened up something nearby. Go Bills!
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Buffalo is very underrated and glad it's seeing a turnaround. A lot of Upstate cities are but I think given Buffalo's size and proximity to Canada, it has the most potential. I think Tesla opened up something nearby. Go Bills!
Yeah, Tesla has a 1.2M sq foot "gigafactory" right in the city of Buffalo that was originally supposed to make Tesla roof tiles. But now they also make components for superchargers and electrical storage.

They had over 1,600 employees at the Buffalo plant in February 2022, most recent figure I've seen. The site was the former location of Republic Steel so it's good to see reuse of a brownfield for advanced manufacturing in the 2020s.


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