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  #41  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 3:47 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
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anyway, here are the 1M+ US MSAs ranked by current ZHVI:

(the 10 cities from the dude's "underrated" list are bolded)
  1. San Jose: $1,710,404
  2. San Francisco: $1,489,691
  3. Los Angeles: $932,783
  4. San Diego: $923,350
  5. Honolulu: $916,366
  6. Seattle: $791,933
  7. Boston: $649,034
  8. Denver: $639,316
  9. Sacramento: $616,124
  10. Salt Lake City: $602,765
  11. New York: $600,354
  12. Austin: $594,441
  13. Portland: $581,400
  14. Riverside: $578,174
  15. Washington: $550,917
  16. Phoenix: $466,170
  17. Raleigh: $445,219
  18. Providence: $438,168
  19. Las Vegas: $437,478
  20. Nashville: $433,158
  21. Miami: $430,068
  22. Fresno: $386,924
  23. Dallas: $381,089
  24. Orlando: $376,474
  25. Minneapolis: $374,074
  26. Charlotte: $372,300
  27. Baltimore: $372,061
  28. Atlanta: $367,946
  29. Tampa: $366,059
  30. Jacksonville: $355,286

    US National ZHVI: $344,141

  31. Tucson: $335,711
  32. San Antonio: $329,532
  33. Philadelphia: $327,347
  34. Richmond: $320,654
  35. Virginia Beach: $317,835
  36. Hartford: $312,123
  37. Chicago: $305,282
  38. Grand Rapids: $303,655
  39. Houston: $299,998
  40. Columbus: $290,400
  41. Kansas City: $283,085
  42. Milwaukee: $267,887
  43. New Orleans: $264,185
  44. Indianapolis: $263,495
  45. Cincinnati: $255,392
  46. Buffalo: $241,651
  47. St. Louis: $239,028
  48. Detroit: $238,278
  49. Louisville: $236,137
  50. Birmingham: $234,645
  51. Memphis: $224,616
  52. Cleveland: $212,605
  53. Pittsburgh: $211,973
  54. Rochester: $211,155
  55. Oklahoma City: $210,799
  56. Tulsa: $204,626


I might replace NYC and minneapolis with detroit and cincy.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 25, 2022 at 6:14 PM.
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  #42  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 3:52 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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New York really doesn't belong on any "underrated" list. It's a city that matches its hype, but is not hardly "underrated" lol.
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  #43  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Here's the rub, though.
The "desirable" portions of these areas would not be considered affordable. A lot of Brooklyn, in particular, is expensive as hell.
Brownstone Brooklyn is extremely expensive. The rest of Brooklyn, excepting a few small Orthodox tracts, is not particularly expensive, and about as urban as brownstone Brooklyn.

The NYC area has a shit-ton of urbanity, so even though the core yuppie areas are expensive, there are vast swaths of urbanity that are pretty moderately priced. Northern NJ alone has probably over a million people living in relatively cheap, but very urban geography. The Bronx is even more urban, and almost entirely affordable. The Bronx is more urban than any geography in the U.S. excepting Manhattan.

The Concourse neighborhoods in the Bronx are probably the best deal for hard-core urbanites. Fantastic urbanity, still really cheap, just starting to gentrify, so upside is huge, and the problems of the 1970's and 80's have almost entirely disappeared. Roomy 200k coops galore, in art deco buildings built for the upper class.
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  #44  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 4:01 PM
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If I think of "underrated" i think of US cities which are actually quite urban but aren't traditionally known as such.

Traditional "urban" US Cities I think of include:

NYC
Philly
Chicago
Boston
Washington
Seattle
San Fran

These are cities with large, walkable districts that everyone sort of knows are big, urban cities. So to me, it would have to be other cities.

my top 10 underrated US metros would therefor exclude those, as they are well known to be urban. It would look something like this, in no particular order:

Buffalo
Pittsburgh
New Orleans
Cleveland
Minneapolis
St Louis
Cincinnati
Baltimore
Detroit
Portland, OR

Other notable ones which have less right now but show promise to be quite urban in the coming decades with the way they are growing include:

Charlotte
Nashville
Austin
Atlanta
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  #45  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 4:20 PM
DCReid DCReid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
anyway, here are the 1M+ US MSAs ranked by current ZHVI:

(the 10 cities from the dude's "underrated" list are bolded)
  1. San Jose: $1,710,404
  2. San Francisco: $1,489,691
  3. Los Angeles: $932,783
  4. San Diego: $923,350
  5. Honolulu: $916,366
  6. Seattle: $791,933
  7. Boston: $649,034
  8. Denver: $639,316
  9. Sacramento: $616,124
  10. Salt Lake City: $602,765
  11. New York: $600,354
  12. Austin: $594,441
  13. Portland: $581,400
  14. Riverside: $578,174
  15. Washington: $550,917
  16. Phoenix: $466,170
  17. Raleigh: $445,219
  18. Providence: $438,168
  19. Las Vegas: $437,478
  20. Nashville: $433,158
  21. Miami: $430,068
  22. Fresno: $386,924
  23. Dallas: $381,089
  24. Orlando: $376,474
  25. Minneapolis: $374,074
  26. Charlotte: $372,300
  27. Baltimore: $372,061
  28. Atlanta: $367,946
  29. Tampa: $366,059
  30. Jacksonville: $355,286

    US National ZHVI: 344,141

  31. Tucson: $335,711
  32. San Antonio: $329,532
  33. Philadelphia: $327,347
  34. Richmond: $320,654
  35. Virginia Beach: $317,835
  36. Hartford: $312,123
  37. Chicago: $305,282
  38. Grand Rapids: $303,655
  39. Houston: $299,998
  40. Columbus: $290,400
  41. Kansas City: $283,085
  42. Milwaukee: $267,887
  43. New Orleans: $264,185
  44. Indianapolis: $263,495
  45. Cincinnati: $255,392
  46. Buffalo: $241,651
  47. St. Louis: $239,028
  48. Detroit: $238,278
  49. Louisville: $236,137
  50. Birmingham: $234,645
  51. Memphis: $224,616
  52. Cleveland: $212,605
  53. Pittsburgh: $211,973
  54. Rochester: $211,155
  55. Oklahoma City: $210,799
  56. Tulsa: $204,626


I might replace NYC and minneapolis with detroit and cincy.
If anything, I would replace NY with DC. Salaries in DC metro are quite high. NY average is really not too bad, compared to places like Austin and SLC, which may be in a little 'bubble'. Providence is interesting as it is not all that far from Boston, but I don't know the tax and job situation there. Hard to fathom that Orlando is more expensive than Tampa, and Nashville is nearly double Memphis! Philly and Chicago are definitely good values given what they offer urban-wise.
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  #46  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 4:52 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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I think it is true in some ways that Philly/Chicago are underrated. Most people know that they have plenty of walkable neighborhoods of course, and that they are more affordable than the other "alpha" cities (NYC, Boston, DC, San Francisco, arguably Seattle these days). However, I think there tends to be a common perception that everything in Philly and Chicago is either super-expensive and gentrified or a dangerous ghetto, when there are plenty of simply unfashionable/ungentrified neighborhoods out there - even if you place a high premium on functional walkability. They're both large enough as cities that there's something for every price point if you really dig into the neighborhoods.

Regarding metro NYC, there surely are a lot of commercial nodes out there that no one outside of the metro really thinks about that are functional. People seem vaguely aware Newark has a big downtown, but few people consider Ironbound. People know Hoboken is walkable/gentrified, but less know about Downtown Jersey City (which is pretty gentrified itself these days), or the growing development of Journal Square. Union City has great functional walkability if you don't mind living in an 80%+ Latino area. Yonkers has a downtown (albeit a poor/ungentrified one), White Plains downtown is actually pretty nice these days...the list goes on and on.

The issue is though (as was noted) that you don't really get that much more living in one of these smaller walkable nodes near NYC than you would get living in a walkable node of similar quality in another metro. Probably the biggest difference overall is there's plenty of functionally walkable poor black/brown neighborhoods to choose from, where elsewhere in the country (outside of pockets of Philly, and Chicago) generally speaking density dropped too low in these kinda areas to keep vibrant business districts working.

Last edited by eschaton; May 25, 2022 at 5:30 PM.
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  #47  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 4:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post

The NYC area has a shit-ton of urbanity, so even though the core yuppie areas are expensive, there are vast swaths of urbanity that are pretty moderately priced.
and that was exactly the dude in the video's point about NYC.

he was well aware that its inclusion on an "underrated" list for city's with affordable urbanism would raise some eyebrows, but metro NYC has so damn much cumulative legacy urbanism (probably more than the whole rest of the nation combined) that some of it in the less trendy/gentrified areas isn't outrageously expensive.

in a lot of other cities, much of the legacy urbanism has already been gentrified to hell and back, or in some other cases much of it was lost entirely during the urban dark ages, such that new york's nearly inexhaustible supply of legacy urbanism does start to stand out a bit.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 25, 2022 at 5:25 PM.
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  #48  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
and that was exactly the dude in the video's point about NYC.

he was well aware that its inclusion on an "underrated" list for city's with affordable urbanism would raise some eyebrows, but metro NYC has so damn much cumulative legacy urbanism (probably more than the whole damn rest of the nation combined) that some of it in the less trendy/gentrified areas isn't outrageously expensive.

in a lot of other cities, much of the legacy urbanism has already been gentrified to hell and back, or in some other cases much of it was lost entirely during the urban dark ages, such that new york's nearly inexhaustible supply of legacy urbanism does start to stand out a bit.
Right. Even in 2022, there are many hyperurban, high quality urban districts in the NYC area that aren't gentrified. So they're relatively cheap.

In most U.S. metros, the good stuff was already gentrified, and the crap areas were mostly eviscerated.

Apartment districts like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8315...7i16384!8i8192

This neighborhood has higher quality 1920's-1930's urbanism and higher grade apartments of that era than almost anywhere, Europe included. Families moved up from prime Manhattan. It was an upper class Jewish German neighborhood until the 1960's. But it was abandoned in the rush to suburbia, and became a working class semi-slum. Now it's revitalized, but only lightly gentrified, so still relatively cheap. But probably not for long.
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  #49  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 5:29 PM
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All the guy meant was the cities are undervalued and the real estate should command a higher price for the level of amenities. Don't overthink it ppl.
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  #50  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
However, I think there tends to be a common perception that everything in Philly and Chicago is either super-expensive and gentrified or a dangerous ghetto, when there are plenty of simply unfashionable/ungentrified neighborhoods out there - even if you place a high premium on functional walkability. They're both large enough as cities that there's something for every price point if you really dig into the neighborhoods.
100% agreed.

also, there's the issue that gentrification is not some blanket phenomenon that is the exact same thing in all cities that turns everyplace in its path into a hyper-exclusive "millionaire's club".

my neighborhood of Lincoln Square would definitely be described as "gentrified/gentrifying" within the context of chicago, but i was still able to purchase a giant family-sized condo here for only $183 per SF just 4 years ago.

hell, even down in Lincoln Park (super-prime gentrification for chicago) here's a 3 bed/2 bath 1,800 SF two-level condo listed for $540K ($300 per SF).

try doing that in gentrified boston or SF. you ain't getting remotely close to those PSF price points for residential real estate in the prime and super-prime areas of those cities.





Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Probably the biggest difference overall is there's plenty of functionally walkable poor black/brown neighborhoods to choose from, where elsewhere in the country (outside of pockets of Philly, and Chicago) generally speaking density dropped too low in these kinda areas to keep vibrant business districts working.
exhibit A in chicago: Little Village

not gentrified at all, but it has one of the most vibrant neighborhood commercial streets in the city.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 25, 2022 at 6:16 PM.
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  #51  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 5:44 PM
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I find Buffalo functionally much more urban than Columbus, and probably about a wash with Cincy.

Buffalo doesn't have Detroit- or Cleveland-style bombed out areas. At least not large geographies. It's pretty intact.
I agree with this Buffalo is a bit more intact then many peoples perception. And there is some real efforts to bring development back into neglected communities. Buffalo city boundaries are small(<50 sq. mi.) So even a little sprucing here and there has a significant impact, nevertheless, still a lot to be done.
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  #52  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 5:48 PM
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IMO a lot of it is people not really seeking urbanity/density, but a certain type of neighborhood vibe. So yeah, they might like urbanity, but on their terms.

Usually predominately white residents, lots of chain stores, hipster stuff and the like. Weird demographics like Orthodox Jews or Puerto Ricans or insular Italians don't usually fit the bill. Dollar stores, halal butchers and Jamacian doubles sandwich joints are scary.

This is why you get the "I couldn't afford Park Slope, Brooklyn, so I moved to Montclair, NJ" stories. There are lots of neighborhoods more urban than Montclair and cheaper than either, and good safety and schools, but those aren't on the radar for most.
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  #53  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 5:52 PM
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It was a 1970s downtown revitalization scheme... a "transitway mall" to combat suburbanization of commercial activity. And doing it underground downtown was too costly.

It ended up only helping to hasten the demise of downtown retailers, by only making it more difficult for people to drive and park and patronize downtown establishments. Trends were against its success from the start, yet they still tried with way-too-late efforts like this to "save downtown".
Yes, definitely a not so well thought out idea with good intentions. Interestingly there are real talks of expanding the line. Will likely be light rail up to the UB North Campus in Amherst and another extension out to the airport. Which in my opinion if you wanted to help downtown should have been part of phase 1.
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  #54  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 6:07 PM
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IMO a lot of it is people not really seeking urbanity/density, but a certain type of neighborhood vibe. So yeah, they might like urbanity, but on their terms.

Usually predominately white residents, lots of chain stores, hipster stuff and the like. Weird demographics like Orthodox Jews or Puerto Ricans or insular Italians don't usually fit the bill. Dollar stores, halal butchers and Jamacian doubles sandwich joints are scary.

This is why you get the "I couldn't afford Park Slope, Brooklyn, so I moved to Montclair, NJ" stories. There are lots of neighborhoods more urban than Montclair and cheaper than either, and good safety and schools, but those aren't on the radar for most.
Eh, lots of "first-wave gentrifiers" - professional artists, 20somethings not from a rich background, etc. - aren't necessarily looking for that stuff. They just want a non-ghetto neighborhood with decent transit access. I mean, look who moved to Bushwick!

But yeah, once you're in your 30s and maybe have a kid or two, you're going to be more picky regarding where you choose to live.

Last edited by eschaton; May 25, 2022 at 6:53 PM.
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  #55  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 6:19 PM
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exhibit A in chicago: Little Village

not gentrified at all, but it has one of the most vibrant neighborhood commercial streets in the city.
See, THIS is the kind of neighborhood I would totally visit. My mind instantly said 'authentic Mexican food.' I am salivating.

I went around a bit on Google Street View and sure enough, I saw this: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Do...!4d-87.7155306

This looks like THE PLACE. Tortas, birria, pozole, nopales... I'm totally there!
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  #56  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 7:18 PM
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See, THIS is the kind of neighborhood I would totally visit. My mind instantly said 'authentic Mexican food.' I am salivating.
because it's quite far from the border region, people who are unfamiliar with chicago usually don't think of it as one of the US's major mexican cities, but it really is.

chicagoland is now home to ~1.8M people of mexican ancestry, which i believe places it 3rd nationally behind only LA (BY FAR the #1) and houston (though it's really close with dallas, so it may be 4th).

NYC and miami have more total latinos than chicago, but they're way more carribbean-originating than mexican.

in chicagoland, ~80% of all latinos are mexican, so yeah, this city has authentic mexican food locked down.

and Little Village is like the capital city of mexican-american culture/heritage in chicago, so if you ever do visit chicago and want a real deal authentic mexican barrio (inhabiting some nice old-school chicago vernaular architecture), head on out to Little Village (though it's far from the only predominately mexican neighborhood in town).
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  #57  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 7:32 PM
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Here's the rub, though.

The "desirable" portions of these areas would not be considered affordable. A lot of Brooklyn, in particular, is expensive as hell.

To me, as someone who has resided in multiple areas of NYC, I'd much rather live in a cool neighborhood in another city which offers basically everything (and usually more) that a "relatively affordable" part of Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Northern NJ offers... for significantly less $ and really, significantly less stress.

I guess I just don't get living way the f--- out there and deal with the daily miserable grind that comes with doing so, just to live "in NYC".

New York is awesome, but as far as I'm concerned, it's just not worth it. It takes way more than it gives.
Interesting. I get what you're saying, but I never had that experience while living in those undesirable parts of NYC. Flatbush( which I lived in a while ago) wasn't a hectic place. In fact, outside of the tourist areas and CBDs, New York, especially the outer boroughs, is pretty calm for the most part.

The walkable aspect of the whole metro is what makes it still a good option. It's large enough that you don't necessarily have to live in the desirable neighborhoods to benefit from those areas.
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  #58  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 7:43 PM
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The walkable aspect of the whole metro is what makes it still a good option. It's large enough that you don't necessarily have to live in the desirable neighborhoods to benefit from those areas.
and the rail transportation network - intra-city, throughout the metro area, and even out into the larger bos-wash region - is unparalleled within the US.

it's BY FAR the easiest car-free city in the country, in terms of the total amount of the whole metro area that can be accessed without a car.

and as mentioned earlier, there's so much urbanism in new york, that some of it is still relatively reasonable in terms of real estate purchase costs.
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  #59  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 9:10 PM
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But yeah, once you're in your 30s and maybe have a kid or two, you're going to be more picky regarding where you choose to live.
I think it's somewhat the opposite. At least in NYC. The 22-27 high income crowd seems much more tied to yuppie Manhattan scenes. The late 20s and up high-income crowd seems much more likely to be moving to the outer boroughs.
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  #60  
Old Posted May 25, 2022, 9:55 PM
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Housing prices are going up everywhere.

But compared to other large US MSAs, Cleveland and the other major rustbelters are still relatively "cheap" (ie. residential real estate purchase costs are low).


Well Steely, I know housing has been going up everywhere for awhile now all over the country. And your list of city housing prices does reflect the point that in spite of the increases nationwide Cleveland is still very cheap.

My point was Cleveland's prices albeit low, are much higher than even a few years ago when the average Cleveland price was still under $100,000. When housing was skyrocketing around the country Cleveland prices were flat. It's only recently that we have seen prices double and sometimes triple. We're experiencing for maybe the first time house's going for above ask.

Cleveland remains a very affordable and easy place to call home. Although the weather still sucks.
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