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  #1  
Old Posted May 23, 2022, 11:15 PM
Dariusb Dariusb is offline
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10 underrated US metros for affordability, walkability and livability

Some were surprising. Do you agree or would you have a different list?
https://youtu.be/1qzePci2N6E
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  #2  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 12:40 AM
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Crawford gonna lose his shit when he sees Chicago at #1!

1. Chicago
2. Philly
3. Pittsburgh
4. New Orleans
5. Cleveland
6. Buffalo
7. Milwaukee
8. St. Louis
9. Minneapolis
10. New york


The general overall theme: most americans now hate cold winters, so most cities that are actual cities with cold winters do well in this dude's eyes because Americans don't want to live in them anymore, making them more affordable relative to cities that have more mild year round climates. New Orleans is the only city on his list that doesn't regularly see snow every winter.

The only city I expected to see here that wasn't is Cincinnati.


And before anyone gets too bent outta shape about the list, the dude goes out of his way at the beginning to drive home the point that this all extremely subjective stuff and that his criteria for making this ranking was in no way meant to be objective.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 24, 2022 at 2:17 PM.
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  #3  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 12:53 AM
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New Orleans is actually quite expensive. As usual, they blindly take medians, when much of the Nola metro is extremely undesirable post-Katrina recovery zones, high crime inner city hoods and floodplains.

If you want a Nola neighborhood with good schools, nice homes, safety, quality services and low odds of flooding, the city is extremely expensive. And incomes are low.
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  #4  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
1. Chicago
2. Philly
3. Pittsburgh
4. New Orleans
5. Cleveland
6. Buffalo
7. Milwaukee
8. St. Louis
9. Minneapolis
10. New york
All my favourite US cities are there. I'd only drop Minneapolis for Detroit.
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  #5  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 1:09 AM
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Makes sense to me about Chicago and Philly if you want a great urban city and a little less expense.
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  #6  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 2:02 AM
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Chicago and Philadelphia objectively deserve to be at the top of such a list, which is why I would gladly live in either if the right employment scenario were to present itself.
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  #7  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 2:09 AM
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^Points at the two posts right above me.

Chicago is my top pick for a post grad position, and Philly is my top pick on the East Coast.

The top comment is the author explaining two key omissions:

Quote:
This is one where, going into it, I had strong opinions about cities I though would show up when I did the "analysis." Most of them did, but two didn't, and I'm going to explain why.

1. Baltimore. The Zillow Home Value Index for the Baltimore MSA is $366,129, which I thought was surprisingly high. It's still a good value, but just not as good a value (i.e. differential between what I think it's worth and what the going price is) as the ten that made this list.

2. Cincinnati. The ZHVI is pretty low ($250,986), but the transit supply (metro area per capita) is significantly worse than any of the ten cities that made this list. It's like half of what Cleveland is -- and they're in the same state!
Although on what planet is NYC underrated?
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  #8  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 3:48 AM
Dariusb Dariusb is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox View Post
^Points at the two posts right above me.

Chicago is my top pick for a post grad position, and Philly is my top pick on the East Coast.

The top comment is the author explaining two key omissions:



Although on what planet is NYC underrated?
Yeah I don't get that either about NYC being underrated.
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  #9  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 3:58 AM
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Well it is by metro so maybe they’re saying NYC metro is underrated and more affordable than one might think. I’m guessing most people just picture the skinny tower condos and thinks that’s what all of NYC is like.
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  #10  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 3:59 AM
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Yep according to the video he’s saying NYC metro is affordable in comparison to places like the Yay Area and Austin.
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  #11  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 2:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
All my favourite US cities are there. I'd only drop Minneapolis for Detroit.
if i'm reading between the lines of this dude's video, he seems to have a special affinity for mostly intact pre-war neighborhood urbansim, which is likely why detroit didn't make his cut.

he also seems to have a special disdain for freeways, citing stats on freeway lane miles per capita several times, and i think detroit scores really poorly on that particular metric, so it was probably a big ding against the city in his calculation.

but detroit is certainly more affordable than your typical big US city and with a vastly improving urban core, arguments could definitely be made for its inclusion here.





Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
Yep according to the video he’s saying NYC metro is affordable in comparison to places like the Yay Area and Austin.
he was also making the point that, because NYC and its burbs have so much collective pre-war urbansim, some of it actually is relatively affordable for what you get and thus a bit "underrated" in his eyes. he sure as shit wasn't talking about the east village or williamsburg being underrated, but more so outer hoods and burbs where one can still live a pretty urban-ish life without being a millionaire because the entire NYC area, overall, is by far the most urban place in the nation.

but he did point out that he was well aware that NYC seems like an odd choice to include on the surface of it.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 24, 2022 at 2:50 PM.
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  #12  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 2:33 PM
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I'm not sure how somebody puts Buffalo high on such a list that doesn't have Cincinnati or Columbus on them. Yes, Buffalo has a single functioning subway line (Cincinnati and Columbus have one not-functioning subway line between them), but really that's the only urban living advantage it has over either, since it's significantly smaller and has much larger and more depressing bombed-out areas.
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  #13  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
if i'm reading between the lines of this dude's video, he seems to have a special affinity for mostly intact pre-war neighborhood urbansim, which is likely why detroit didn't make his cut.

he also seems to have a special disdain for freeways, citing stats on freeway lane miles per capita several times, and i think detroit scores really poorly on that particular metric, so it was probably a big ding against the city in his calculation.

but detroit is certainly more affordable than your typical big US city and with a vastly improving urban core, arguments could definitely be made for its inclusion here.
I'm not sure if today it's practical to organize your whole life to almost never leave Downtown Detroit loop. If so, then you'd be always surrounded by great pre-war architecture, full of art-déco skyscrapers and the Renaissance Center on the background to throw some sort of cyberpunk quality into the mix. To me, there's no way the orderly, normal Minneapolis to compete with that.

But sure, if you take Detroit as a whole, than the freeways, too wide streets, the urban praires, don't help.
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  #14  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 2:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
if i'm reading between the lines of this dude's video, he seems to have a special affinity for mostly intact pre-war neighborhood urbansim, which is likely why detroit didn't make his cut.

he also seems to have a special disdain for freeways, citing stats on freeway lane miles per capita several times, and i think detroit scores really poorly on that particular metric, so it was probably a big ding against the city in his calculation.

but detroit is certainly more affordable than your typical big US city and with a vastly improving urban core, arguments could definitely be made for its inclusion here.
But Cleveland managed to make it to the top 5? Kinda smells bullshit to me, tbh.

I think Minneapolis does belong in the top 10, though. I'd probably say it is top 5 if we're talking about the balance of "affordability" and walkability.
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  #15  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 2:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
I'm not sure how somebody puts Buffalo high on such a list that doesn't have Cincinnati or Columbus on them. Yes, Buffalo has a single functioning subway line (Cincinnati and Columbus have one not-functioning subway line between them), but really that's the only urban living advantage it has over either, since it's significantly smaller and has much larger and more depressing bombed-out areas.
I find Buffalo functionally much more urban than Columbus, and probably about a wash with Cincy.

Buffalo doesn't have Detroit- or Cleveland-style bombed out areas. At least not large geographies. It's pretty intact.
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Old Posted May 24, 2022, 3:09 PM
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But Cleveland managed to make it to the top 5?
again, he didn't explain the details of how he weighted various criteria, but in his cleveland segment he put extra emphasis on the fact that the city has heavy rail, light rail, and the healthline BRT, so it seems like he might have been weighting non-bus transit extra high. ditto for buffalo; the fact that they have a "light metro" rail line* with a proper subway portion seemed to tickle his fancy.

but then milwaukee also made his list and all they have for transit beyond buses is a rinky-dink downtown streetcar, so who knows?



(*) speaking of buffalo's light rail line, does anyone know how/why it was built at street level in mixed traffic through downtown, and then enters into a subway tunnel north of downtown as it travels through 5 miles of city neighborhoods?

it seems to me that if you're gonna spend the big money to subway tunnel a rail line, the first place you'd wanna start would be in downtown, and then maybe bring it up to street level out in the neighborhoods if costs start to run too high.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 24, 2022 at 3:24 PM.
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  #17  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 3:15 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
again, he didn'tt explain the details of how he weighted various criteria, but in his cleveland segment he put extra emphasis on the fact that the city has heavy rail, light rail, and the healthline BRT, so it seems like he might have been weighting non-bus transit extra high. ditto for buffalo; the fact that they have a "light metro" rail line with a proper subway portion seemed to tickle his fancy.

but then milwaukee also made his list and all they have for transit beyond buses is a rinky-dink downtown streetcar, so who knows?
What I'm saying is that I'm extremely skeptical that people can live a lifestyle at a price point in Cleveland that they can't live in Detroit at a similar price point.
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  #18  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 3:17 PM
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That guy's videos are pretty good. Hes definitely transit focused. Ill agree with his list tho. He's right, good weather means high prices but once you look past that this country has lots of affordable options. Id rank Minneapolis as number 1 tho as this country's best city for affordability, comprehensive amenities and sound civic policy. Sorry Chicago, your sexy but finances are a mess.
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  #19  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 3:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post



(*) speaking of buffalo's light rail line, does anyone know how/why it was built at street level in mixed traffic through downtown, and then enters into a subway tunnel north of downtown as it travels through 5 miles of city neighborhoods?

it seems to me that if youp're gonna spend the big money to subway tunnel a rail line, the first place you'd wanna start would be in downtown, and then maybe bring it up to street level out in the neighborhoods if the costs run too high.
It was a 1970s downtown revitalization scheme... a "transitway mall" to combat suburbanization of commercial activity. And doing it underground downtown was too costly.

It ended up only helping to hasten the demise of downtown retailers, by only making it more difficult for people to drive and park and patronize downtown establishments. Trends were against its success from the start, yet they still tried with way-too-late efforts like this to "save downtown".
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  #20  
Old Posted May 24, 2022, 3:44 PM
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It was a 1970s downtown revitalization scheme... a "transitway mall" to combat suburbanization of commercial activity. And doing it underground downtown was too costly.

It ended up only helping to hasten the demise of downtown retailers, by only making it more difficult for people to drive and park and patronize downtown establishments. Trends were against its success from the start, yet they still tried with way-too-late efforts like this to "save downtown".
oh, that's a shame.

with a little more foresight they should've spent their wad tunneling the 1.5 mile downtown section and then running the other 5 miles through the neighborhoods northwest of downtown up at street-level.

they did it backwards. they spent the big bucks where they didn't really need to be spent and then cheaped-out downtown where the MAJOR expense of subway tunneling would've been the most beneficial.
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