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  #81  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 5:46 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
How NYC and Chicago stack up to other Global Cities:

By 300m+: Complete




By 150m+: Complete

I remember 15 years ago being a little snot-nosed teenager and reading in awe about Hong Kong's 5 supertalls, and then 6 with the 1,588' International Commerce Centre (which I considered impossibly high). It seemed like an insurmountable lead (New York was stuck at 2 until 2009 of all years, paradoxically, started the current boom).

And yet Hong Kong's really gone stagnant, building nothing tall since (though a fair number of residential 200ms). Seems like the Chinese just sucked the life out of that city so they could give the wealth and momentum to Shenzhen and Guangzhou.

I don't really want to compare New York to other cities though. I'd prefer New York focus on itself. Would love to see 50 supertalls in 25 years and 100 supertalls in my lifetime. That would be incredible!

That's not too hard to envision. 25 by 2030 is basically guaranteed given how close New York City is, and what's in the pipeline. If everything below were finished that'd be 34, and that's unlikely. But supertalls announced through 2025 could be done by 2030, so 30+ is also very possible.

(Hopefully I'm not missing anything)

Complete/Topped Out (18)
  1. One World Trade Center - 1,776
  2. Central Park Tower - 1,550
  3. 111 West 57th - 1,428'
  4. One Vanderbilt - 1,401'
  5. 432 Park Avenue - 1,397'
  6. 30 Hudson Yards - 1,270'
  7. Empire State Building - 1,250'
  8. Bank of America Tower - 1,200'
  9. Three World Trade Center - 1,079'
  10. Brooklyn Tower - 1,073'
  11. 53W53 - 1,050'
  12. Chrysler Building - 1,046'
  13. New York Times Building - 1,046'
  14. The Spiral - 1,041'
  15. 50 Hudson Yards - 1,011'
  16. One57 - 1,004'
  17. 35 Hudson Yards - 1,000'
  18. One Manhattan West - 996'

Under Construction (2)
  1. 262 Fifth Avenue - 1,011'
  2. 270 Park Avenue - 1,388'

Actively In Pipeline (4)
  1. Penn15 - 1,270'
  2. 41-47 West 57th Street - 1,100'
  3. 175 Park Avenue - 1,646'
  4. 343 Madison Avenue - 1,050'

Dark Horses/Early Stage (5)
  1. 247 Cherry - 1,013'
  2. 350 Park Avenue - 1,450'
  3. Affirmation Tower - 1,663'
  4. Two World Trade Center - 1,323'
  5. 740 Eight Avenue - 1,120'

Stale Proposals/On Hold/Uncertain Future (5)
  1. 45 Broad Street - 1,200'
  2. 80 South Street - 1,436'
  3. 520 Fifth Avenue - 995'
  4. Three Hudson Boulevard - 987'
  5. Tower Fifth - 1,556'
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  #82  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
^^I looked at "existing" buildings only. You can see demolished buildings on Emporis, but I didn't look at them. No point.... can't see them anymore. So, if someone today wanted to see a large collection of pre-war skyscrapers and highrises, they would go to NYC, Chicago, Philly, Detroit, San Francisco and Pittsburgh probably in that order.

Side note - shocked how low Boston is.
Ah, I had the opposite perspective: what skylines would have been the most impressive *for* 1940.
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  #83  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox View Post
Ah, I had the opposite perspective: what skylines would have been the most impressive *for* 1940.
Gotcha - well, looking at it that way, Detroit maybe would've been #3 and Philly #4. Today? Philadelphia definitely has more existing prewar buildings that you can actually go and see, so it's probably Philly at #3 and Detroit at #4.
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  #84  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 5:54 PM
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Gotcha - well, looking at it that way, Detroit maybe would've been #3 and Philly #4. Today? Philadelphia definitely has more existing prewar buildings that you can actually go and see, so it's probably Philly at #3 and Detroit at #4.
Yeah, it seems like Philly is unique amongst the 10+ list for still having every pre-war skyscraper, at least over 300 feet. (*Shakes fist at whoever tore down the Singer Building*)
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  #85  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Take a look at my post above. Philadelphia is undisputed #3...
the #3 pre-war skyline is not as clear-cut as #1 and #2 are, IMO.

philly had a larger collection of buildings over 300 feet at the time, but detroit still had more buildings over 400 feet, 7 vs. 5 (detroit's former hudsons store has since been demolished).

philly's pre-war skyline certainly had a lot more overall bulk than detroit's, but detroit's upper-end height, and the absolute spectacular-ness of those top end beauties, vaults detroit just a little bit above philly in my mind.

but if you think philly had the #3 pre-war skyline, that's a perfectly cromulent opinion as well.
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  #86  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
the #3 pre-war skyline is not as clear-cut as #1 and #2 are, IMO.

philly had a larger collection of buildings over 300 feet at the time, but detroit still had more buildings over 400 feet, 7 vs. 5 (detroit's former hudsons store has since been demolished).

philly's pre-war skyline certainly had a lot more overall bulk than detroit's, but detroit's upper-end height, and the absolute spectacular-ness of those top end beauties, vaults detroit just a little bit above philly in my mind.

but if you think philly had the #3 pre-war skyline, that's a perfectly cromulent opinion as well.
The problem with the Philly skyline was that, until the late 1980s boom that gave us things like the Liberty Place towers and Mellon Bank, Philadelphia had very few landmark buildings other than City Hall and maybe PSFS. It had a lot of 300 ft tall buildings that kind of blended in with one another. It would have been the pre-war equivalent of the Vancouver skyline.
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  #87  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
The problem with the Philly skyline was that, until the late 1980s boom that gave us things like the Liberty Place towers and Mellon Bank, Philadelphia had very few landmark buildings other than City Hall and maybe PSFS. It had a lot of 300 ft tall buildings that kind of blended in with one another. It would have been the pre-war equivalent of the Vancouver skyline.
Yeah the issue with Philly is the pre-wars are stubby and fat which doesn't make for a good historic skyline.
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  #88  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 8:16 PM
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@Manitopiaaa

Seems about right. On a side note but 520 5th has very good odds. We will have two super talls rising on 5th Ave soon.

I have a feeling 45 Broad won't end well... the parcel will be sold to another developer. But this is one parcel that is very market dependent (same with 80 South), so a long term play. Same with 350 Park (2027/2028 at a minimum).

Hudson Yards Phase II may yield 1-2 super talls and than we have the zoning perks like Midtown East and also Penn Station district which in the next 10 years will yield more super talls.

The LES or Cherry Street Development is on-going from a soft cost standpoint. Those should see some movement soon.

One parcel of importance will be where Park Lane Hotel sits. Like 45 Broad, highly market dependent. 343 Madison has very good odds.

The Extell Parcel near 740 Eighth Avenue is something to watch for (I hope the current proposal doesn't rise, the design looks like crap IMO).

Two WTC will rise eventually but we shall see about a pre-lease commitment . With competition from Midtown West/East, it may prove tough although optimism seems to be stemming from Silverstine Properties.

So in theory, we may have 5-6 rising in the next 2-3 years. Similar super tall boom to 2016-2020.
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  #89  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Yeah the issue with Philly is the pre-wars are stubby and fat which doesn't make for a good historic skyline.
St. Louis suffers from the same thing. Despite being a top 10 city for much of it's existence. It never had many historical buildings of any substantial height. It does have a crapload of gilded age residences and large warehouse blocks. It was the 4th largest city in 1900. So it's always shocking to people when they visit St. Louis and are chilling in an intact 19th century neighborhood a good distance from downtown. No city this small should have a neighborhood this old and urban this far out.
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  #90  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
the #3 pre-war skyline is not as clear-cut as #1 and #2 are, IMO.

philly had a larger collection of buildings over 300 feet at the time, but detroit still had more buildings over 400 feet, 7 vs. 5 (detroit's former hudsons store has since been demolished).

philly's pre-war skyline certainly had a lot more overall bulk than detroit's, but detroit's upper-end height, and the absolute spectacular-ness of those top end beauties, vaults detroit just a little bit above philly in my mind.

but if you think philly had the #3 pre-war skyline, that's a perfectly cromulent opinion as well.
NYC was clearly #1 in prewar skyline but Chicago also had a relatively bulky skyline like Philly and the other cities, but with many more buildings. If you look at the list of skyscrapers in Chicago, the 600 foot Chicago Board of Trade was the tallest Chicago skyscraper pre-WWII. The next tallest, the One Prudential Center was then built in 1955 and since then, more than 100 taller building have been built in Chicago, resulting in a radical height change any IS downtown. I read somewhere that the Prudential Building started it all. So maybe the other cities will get a spark from a development - did the Staples center cause the current LA downtown boom?
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  #91  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 9:33 PM
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NYC was clearly #1 in prewar skyline but Chicago also had a relatively bulky skyline like Philly and the other cities, but with many more buildings.
yeah, chicago's skyline in 1940 was way stubbier than NYC's (so was every other skyline on the planet), but chicago still had way more tall buildings than any city not named "new york". in terms of height and number of buildings, chicago easily had the 2nd largest skyline in the world at the time. the only numerical skyscraper superlative for 2nd place that chicago didn't own at the time was "tallest skyscraper outside of NYC", a title easily held by cleveland's terminal tower, but as i mentioned earlier, cleveland had almost next to no supporting cast for terminal tower. it was a true outlier in every way.

pre-war chicago 600 footers: 1

pre-war chicago 500 footers: 12

pre-war chicago 400 footers: 22

pre-war chicago 300 footers: 51

source: CTBUH
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Dec 13, 2021 at 11:59 PM.
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  #92  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 9:53 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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St. Louis suffers from the same thing. Despite being a top 10 city for much of it's existence. It never had many historical buildings of any substantial height. It does have a crapload of gilded age residences and large warehouse blocks. It was the 4th largest city in 1900. So it's always shocking to people when they visit St. Louis and are chilling in an intact 19th century neighborhood a good distance from downtown. No city this small should have a neighborhood this old and urban this far out.
Me and my sister did a "Redfin tour" of Saint Louis and she's usually very picky, but was literally so excited and wanted to buy most of them.

https://www.redfin.com/MO/St-Louis/3.../home/93689925

^^ If this was in D.C., I'd be bidding $100k over list price tomorrow.

And these mini-houses are so unique and beautiful (and $189k!!!)

https://www.redfin.com/MO/St-Louis/3.../home/62698138

And another: https://www.redfin.com/MO/St-Louis/2.../home/62734736

^^ This type of house alone would do wonders for the housing supply. It's affordable, detached, has a big backyard, beautiful interior. Instead of these ugly look-alike condo towers, we need more of these.
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  #93  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2021, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Me and my sister did a "Redfin tour" of Saint Louis and she's usually very picky, but was literally so excited and wanted to buy most of them.

https://www.redfin.com/MO/St-Louis/3.../home/93689925

^^ If this was in D.C., I'd be bidding $100k over list price tomorrow.

And these mini-houses are so unique and beautiful (and $189k!!!)

https://www.redfin.com/MO/St-Louis/3.../home/62698138

And another: https://www.redfin.com/MO/St-Louis/2.../home/62734736

^^ This type of house alone would do wonders for the housing supply. It's affordable, detached, has a big backyard, beautiful interior. Instead of these ugly look-alike condo towers, we need more of these.
Transplants and boomerangs usually have a better appreciation for the local vernacular. Most people who are born and raised St. Louisans would take a bulldozer and build a McMansion on those lots. This has changed a lot in the past decade or so with a lot of people being more proud of the city, but a lot of that sentiment is still around. In fact, that $189k bungalow is outrageously priced for the city. I remember when they would sale something like that for $50k and that wasn't long ago.
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  #94  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2021, 3:27 AM
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Cincinnati had two 500+ prewar skyscrapers:
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  #95  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2021, 3:39 AM
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^ a bit of a bummer about 4th &Vine losing the tip of its spire and now falling ever so slightly below 500' at 495'.

Still though, it was the tallest skyscraper in the world outside of NYC when it was completed back in 1913, so it was definitely a very big deal in its time.
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  #96  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2021, 4:19 AM
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^ a bit of a bummer about 4th &Vine losing the tip of its spire and now falling ever so slightly below 500' at 495'.

Still though, it was the tallest skyscraper in the world outside of NYC when it was completed back in 1913, so it was definitely a very big deal in its time.
It's similar to the Met Life Building in NYC, although not as fancy. It's being renovated into apartments right now.

What's crazy is that a base was built around 1915 for an even taller office tower fashioned in the same style. The base is still there but the tower was never built:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0993...7i16384!8i8192

There was a really fantastic show at the CAC back in 1998 where they displayed the architectural plans for several art deco skyscrapers in Cincinnati's CBD. These things were ready to break ground in 1930 or 1931 if not for the stock market crash. The city is very lucky to have the Carew Tower, which broke ground just a few months before the crash, even though the budget was cut and it got a plain brick exterior instead of Indiana limestone similar to Rockefeller Center.
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  #97  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2021, 5:39 AM
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We would have had so many more monster pre-war towers if it wasn't for the great depression. Or at least if the great depression had just held off a few more years.
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  #98  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2021, 3:13 PM
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the time of new office skyscrapers has passed, at least for the foreseeable future. Alas, only supertall condo towers are on the horizon
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  #99  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2021, 3:42 PM
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the time of new office skyscrapers has passed, at least for the foreseeable future. Alas, only supertall condo towers are on the horizon
not entirely.

NYC has seen the start of construction on 3 big office towers since the pandemic began, one of which, the new Chase HQ tower, is going to be 1,388' tall!

and there are proposals for at least a half dozen more office towers there currently on the boards.
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  #100  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2021, 3:59 PM
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That's the best historic Cincinnati photo I've ever seen. Too bad it's a bit grainy. Is it a still from a film?
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