Worldwide Demographics

[Yuri]

As Acajack mentioned how small Los Angeles, São Paulo and Mexico City were back in 1900, Berlin was the opposite: its metro area (they still hadn't merged by that time) was getting close to 3 million.

For comparison, London, the largest city in the world, had 6.2 million; New York (plus Hudson and Essex) had 4.2 million, Paris 4 million, Chicago (Cook) 1.8 million, Vienna 1.8 million, Tokyo 1.6 million, Philadelphia 1.6 million, St. Petersburg 1.5 million.

Berlin was once world's 4th largest city.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Labtec

You could add San Francisco / Silicon Valley to it too probably. I think San Francisco's GDP is close to surpassing LA's GDP at a much lower population. Apple, Google, Facebook, Visa, Chevron, Tesla (moved to Texas but started in the area), Intel, Nvidia, AMD, etc. They helped shape the devices/technology we use today.

The Bay Area isn't really a content generator. The Bay Area is home to companies that have created massive platforms for others to distribute. Even Netflix has drifted significantly into L.A.'s orbit when it migrated from just being a distribution platform to generating its own content.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I was suspecting there might not be some regional rivalries involved.

Berlin is clearly poorer than most of the other major German cities, but it's still typically the first German city people outside the country think of.

Because of WW2 and more so with the Cold War. Not because of Berlin on its own as a major city stands out compared to opposed to Frankfurt, Munich or Hamburg.

[Labtec]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The Bay Area isn't really a content generator. The Bay Area is home to companies that have created massive platforms for others to distribute. Even Netflix has drifted significantly into L.A.'s orbit when it migrated from just being a distribution platform to generating its own content.

The area changed the way people connect Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. The tech revolution, a lot of the internet and infrastructure, what goes in our devices (AMD or Intel CPU), iOS or Android. It has more of an impact on lives than merely content.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by JManc

Because of WW2 and more so with the Cold War. Not because of Berlin on its own as a major city stands out compared to opposed to Frankfurt, Munich or Hamburg.

I think Frankfurt is the city that first comes to mind for non-Germans.

It's the gateway city, the hub, the nation's center, the financial and business capital. It isn't particularly interesting or historic, but it's most people's first introduction to Germany.

Bonn was chosen as the West German capital because Germans were afraid that if they chose Frankfurt, it would lessen odds of reunification. Bonn was obviously not a national capital, while Frankfurt was a natural capital, so the decision deliberately emphasized West Germany's status as a temporary entity.

Berlin wasn't the national capital until 1871, and obviously only till 1945. Post-reunification it was incredibly difficult to force the move back, involving a lot of arm-twisting, and many federal agencies never left Bonn. Bonn is boring and nondescript but wealthy and wonderfully located. Berlin is anything but boring, but bureaucrats generally aren't looking for the clubbing scene.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Bonn was chosen as the West German capital because Germans were afraid that if they chose Frankfurt, it would lessen odds of reunification. Bonn was obviously not a national capital, while Frankfurt was a natural capital

Frankfurt has always been an important German city, but I'm not sure if it was apparent that it would have been the natural capital of West Germany.

A lot of the things that make Frankfurt important today were not even really well developed in 1949, like the financialization of the world and commercial air travel.

Between 1871 and 1933, Germany was really just Prussia and its Junker class steering the ship the way England is by far the most important part of the United Kingdom. The new postwar boundaries obviously killed Prussia completely - being that it was now chopped up among 4 countries and its inhabitants scattered by ethnic cleansing - but it wouldn't have been obvious at the time that Frankfurt, which was not even the historical capital of Hesse, could serve as a de facto capital for the Federal Republic.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Labtec

The area changed the way people connect Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. The tech revolution, a lot of the internet and infrastructure, what goes in our devices (AMD or Intel CPU), iOS or Android. It has more of an impact on lives than merely content.

It was transformative, yes, but the Bay Area doesn't originate much media.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think Frankfurt is the city that first comes to mind for non-Germans.

It's the gateway city, the hub, the nation's center, the financial and business capital. It isn't particularly interesting or historic, but it's most people's first introduction to Germany.

We are strictly talking name recognition by casual observers. As a kid in the growing up in the 80's, Berlin was the first German city I became aware of in the news and current events. I quickly leaned about Bonn (W. Germany), Frankfurt (skyscrapers), Munich (beer), Potsdam (great-grandmother from there), etc. shortly after though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JManc

We are strictly talking name recognition by casual observers. As a kid in the growing up in the 80's, Berlin was the first German city I became aware of in the news and current events. I quickly leaned about Bonn (W. Germany), Frankfurt (skyscrapers), Munich (beer), Potsdam (great-grandmother from there), etc. shortly after though.

I just pop quizzed my kids.

Berlin wins this.

Runner-up is Munich.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I just pop quizzed my kids.

Berlin wins this.

Runner-up is Munich.

Down here, it’s the same: Berlin will be mentioned first by virtually everybody. And its brand is getting stronger every passing year as it became a touristic powerhouse.

[iheartthed]

Berlin definitely seems to be the most internationally well known German city. The Berlin Wall has to be Germany's most well known landmark? Second would be Brandenburg Gate, and third the Holocaust Memorial.

[Crawford]

Frankfurt has been a wealthy and important banking center for centuries, when Berlin was a minor Prussian village.

And I'm not gonna agree with the apparent SSP consensus. In business, I don't know anyone who doesn't think of Frankfurt first. Berlin didn't even have a real airport (I mean not even a Buffalo-level airport) until a few months ago. Frankfurt is the center of Europe.

And disagree re. most famous German landmarks. Has to be Neuschwanstein, Kölner Dom and Rhineland castles. Brandenburg Gate wouldn't have universal name recognition, the Wall, yeah, but more of a historical Cold War postscript and familiar to those 40+. A key historical narrative, not a landmark. It's essentially gone.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Frankfurt has been a wealthy and important banking center for centuries, when Berlin was a minor Prussian village.

And I'm not gonna agree with the apparent SSP consensus. In business, I don't know anyone who doesn't think of Frankfurt first. Berlin didn't even have a real airport (I mean not even a Buffalo-level airport) until a few months ago. Frankfurt is the center of Europe.

And disagree re. most famous German landmarks. Has to be Neuschwanstein, Kölner Dom and Rhineland castles. Brandenburg Gate wouldn't have universal name recognition, the Wall, yeah, but more of a historical Cold War postscript and familiar to those 40+. A key historical narrative, not a landmark. It's essentially gone.

Tegel handled 24 million pre-Covid. That’s definitely not Buffalo. Tempelhof was one of the most famous airports on aviation history, so it’s a bit unfair to dismiss Berlin.

About the Cold War helping Berlin’s image, I argue Berlin is much more important and recognizable now. The average Brazilian tourist to Germany up to the 1990’s would head to Munich only and sometimes to Cologne. Berlin would be seen as exotic as Moscow or Havana and only experimented tourists would go there. Today Berlin is definitely the most popular destination.

[edale]

Frankfort is the bigger destination for business travel, definitely. Cincinnati used to have a direct flight to Frankfurt due, in part, to the large Procter and Gamble presence there. But I think Berlin is absolutely the cultural capital and probably best known German city among the general US populace.

For what it's worth, when I planned my last Euro trip, Berlin was the only city in Germany I considered visiting. Very glad I did-- had a total blast, and the city was totally unlike anywhere I have ever been.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Frankfurt has been a wealthy and important banking center for centuries, when Berlin was a minor Prussian village.

And I'm not gonna agree with the apparent SSP consensus. In business, I don't know anyone who doesn't think of Frankfurt first.

Of course bankers would think of Frankfurt first, but bankers ≠ the general population. It's pretty clear that Berlin has a much stronger brand and way more cultural, social, and historic appeal than Frankfurt does today, especially among younger people (as evidenced by Berlin's volume of tourist arrivals vs. Frankfurt's).

[Crawford]

Tempelhof is famous for an airlift, not its facilities. It had horrible facilities.

Berlin currently has one nonstop year-round flight from the U.S., BTW. EWR is the only option.

Frankfurt has nonstops from basically every major U.S. city. There are like 30 daily flights from NYC alone. All those flights aren't bankers, or even business.

Berlin isn't even the #2 German gateway city. That's Munich, which has one of the nicest airports anywhere.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Tempelhof is famous for an airlift, not its facilities. It had horrible facilities.

Berlin currently has one nonstop year-round flight from the U.S., BTW. EWR is the only option.

Frankfurt has nonstops from basically every major U.S. city. There are like 30 daily flights from NYC alone. All those flights aren't bankers, or even business.

Berlin isn't even the #2 German gateway city. That's Munich, which has one of the nicest airports anywhere.

Berlin isn't a major airline hub airport, so that makes sense. It does pretty well for a non-hub airport, though. I'm sure the schedules have been cut during COVID, but I typically fly direct to Berlin from JFK.

Also, yes, Frankfurt is clearly the business capital of Germany. But Berlin is more well known. It's like Milan and Rome.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Frankfurt has been a wealthy and important banking center for centuries, when Berlin was a minor Prussian village.

And I'm not gonna agree with the apparent SSP consensus. In business, I don't know anyone who doesn't think of Frankfurt first. Berlin didn't even have a real airport (I mean not even a Buffalo-level airport) until a few months ago. Frankfurt is the center of Europe.

And disagree re. most famous German landmarks. Has to be Neuschwanstein, Kölner Dom and Rhineland castles. Brandenburg Gate wouldn't have universal name recognition, the Wall, yeah, but more of a historical Cold War postscript and familiar to those 40+. A key historical narrative, not a landmark. It's essentially gone.

Frankfurt really isn't going to register for those who don't pay attention to finance or economics. You also have that perspective and that of someone with close ties to Germany but I guarantee, to most casual observers (outside Germany), Frankfurt is just a big city with a busy airport.

As for FRA, it's Lufthansa's hub which explains why it's so busy.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Tempelhof is famous for an airlift, not its facilities. It had horrible facilities.

Berlin currently has one nonstop year-round flight from the U.S., BTW. EWR is the only option.

Frankfurt has nonstops from basically every major U.S. city. There are like 30 daily flights from NYC alone. All those flights aren't bankers, or even business.

Berlin isn't even the #2 German gateway city. That's Munich, which has one of the nicest airports anywhere.

Tempelhof is famous because it used to be one of the world’s most important airports in the 1930’s and it’s an Art Déco gem.

I’m aware Berlin is the 3rd busiest system in Germany (and the fastest growing), but it doesn’t mean it’s a Buffalo. And with the new airport, they’re well positioned to overtake Munich and start challenging Frankfurt.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Tempelhof is famous because it used to be one of the world’s most important airports in the 1930’s and it’s an Art Déco gem.

I’m aware Berlin is the 3rd busiest system in Germany (and the fastest growing), but it doesn’t mean it’s a Buffalo. And with the new airport, they’re well positioned to overtake Munich and start challenging Frankfurt.

Berlin's airport reminds me of London's Stanstead, busy but mostly budget airlines (easyjet, ryanair, etc) flying into more secondary cities where as Frankfurt flies far more into major destinations; I have to fly through FRA, CDG or FRA to get to Berlin.