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  #1  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 6:44 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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Is NYC the most geopolitically diverse city in the US?

Some very abrupt shifts in political geography in NYC that you don't really see in other cities. Best example may be in Brooklyn where you go from 95% D Black neighborhoods to Ultra-Orthodox and Russian Jewish neighborhoods that are nearly as R.

Heavily Italian American Staten Island is around 75% R, remarkable for a metropolitan area. Some Italian enclaves like Dyker Heights, Howard Beach and Whitestone are quite conservative too. Perhaps the large amount descended from post-war Italian immigration (as opposed to Ellis Island-descended)neighborhoods has led to a strong sense of Italian identity and social conservatism. White ethnic neighorhoods in other NE and Midwestern cities don't seem as Republican.

Few major cities have areas of Republican strength that NYC does.

In the suburbs, you have some insular "New Yawkish" enclaves in Long Island. Nassau and Suffolk are quite Republican for major NE suburban counties.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 3:34 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Some very abrupt shifts in political geography in NYC that you don't really see in other cities. Best example may be in Brooklyn where you go from 95% D Black neighborhoods to Ultra-Orthodox and Russian Jewish neighborhoods that are nearly as R.

Heavily Italian American Staten Island is around 75% R, remarkable for a metropolitan area. Some Italian enclaves like Dyker Heights, Howard Beach and Whitestone are quite conservative too. Perhaps the large amount descended from post-war Italian immigration (as opposed to Ellis Island-descended)neighborhoods has led to a strong sense of Italian identity and social conservatism. White ethnic neighorhoods in other NE and Midwestern cities don't seem as Republican.

Few major cities have areas of Republican strength that NYC does.

In the suburbs, you have some insular "New Yawkish" enclaves in Long Island. Nassau and Suffolk are quite Republican for major NE suburban counties.
I'd guess that a big diverse southern city like Houston or Dallas would have similar dynamics. Also, the only broad Trump-y areas of NYC are south Brooklyn and Staten Island. You might also find a couple of pockets of Trump-y areas in Queens and the Bronx that still have pockets of second or third generation ethnic whites, but those places don't have enough people to push the political needle to the right much.
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  #3  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 4:21 PM
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I've wondered this myself, but more along the lines of "What is the most ideologically diverse city in the US?"

Every time I try to look up statistics, it's always framed under the 2 status-quo parties, namely Republicans and Democrats. NYC being the center of capitalism in the US, I would imagine it would be dominated by those two parties.

I've never been a Republican or Democrat, I've only ever been registered in the Peace and Freedom Party and the Green Party. I'd like to know what cities in the US are full of Communists, Socialists, Fascists, far right-wingers, far left-wingers, etc. I can't even find percentages for Green Party members in cities.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 5:02 PM
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I'd guess that a big diverse southern city like Houston or Dallas would have similar dynamics.
yeah, if this is a city proper exercise, i would think that one of the sunbelt sprawler cities with HUGE city limits, like houston or phoenix, would lean much more red overall than NYC.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 6:07 PM
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There's a few different dynamics that I think play a role here in why NYC has a uniquely high number of conservative neighborhoods within city limits.

The strongest by far is just the Hasidim and the other ultra-orthodox. Every single 80%+ Trump precinct in NYC is a Hasid or ultra-Orthodox area, as are most of the 70%-79% Trump areas.

Discounting those areas, there are mostly just "normal conservative" zones - areas where over half to two-thirds of people vote Republican. NYC has more of these than anywhere else, but they aren't unknown in other old urban areas. Philly has more than a few, Chicago has a couple, etc.

But NYC does stand out here, even considering its greater size. I think a few aspects play a role.

1. The sheer scale of the city mean that neighborhoods can develop with a critical mass of GOP-leaning occupations (like cops and firemen).

2. New York state had unique political dynamics which made the state Republican Party more competitive than it "should" have been for generations, which meant that the attachment of working-class white city dwellers to the Democrats was never as strong as somewhere like Boston or Chicago.

3. A lot of the zones which are pretty conservative are suburbs for all intents and purposes. Looking at most of Staten Island here for example. There's limited attractiveness for professional-class whites to gentrify these areas, which means as long as they don't shift to nonwhite neighborhoods they're going to lean GOP.

It is striking that if you compare southern Staten island to nearby parts of New Jersey it's way more GOP (some areas of Staten island were 75% Trump, while Middlesex County suburbs right across the Arthur Kill are generally at least narrowly Dem. However, this mostly seems to be because the NJ suburbs are way, way more diverse than southern Staten Island.

Last edited by eschaton; Sep 12, 2022 at 7:50 PM.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 6:17 PM
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1. The sheer scale of the city mean that neighborhoods can develop with a critical mass of GOP-leaning occupations (like cops and firemen).
does NYC have a residency requirement for city workers?

if so, are there de facto "cops & firemen" neighborhoods on the city fringes like chicago?


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  #7  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 6:48 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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does NYC have a residency requirement for city workers?

if so, are there de facto "cops & firemen" neighborhoods on the city fringes like chicago?
No, they are not required to live in the city, which is why most don't. But I believe they are required to live in NYS and are not allowed to live beyond Dutchess and Ulster counties Putnam and Orange counties.

Edit: Fact checked the counties where NYPD officers are allowed to live.
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  #8  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 6:54 PM
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does NYC have a residency requirement for city workers?

if so, are there de facto "cops & firemen" neighborhoods on the city fringes like chicago?


No. No city residency requirement. No real "cops and firefighters" neighborhoods, but any working class fringe neighborhood, regardless of ethnic background, will have city workers. Lots of Irish/Italian city workers in Staten Island, black West Indian city workers in SE Queens, Hispanic city workers in East Bronx, etc.

The cop/firefighter neighborhoods are mostly in suburban sprawl.
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  #9  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 6:58 PM
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No, they are not required to live in the city, which is why most don't. But I believe they are required to live in NYS and are not allowed to live beyond Dutchess and Ulster counties Putnam and Orange counties.

Edit: Fact checked the counties where NYPD officers are allowed to live.
It depends on the agency. Cops and firefighters have to live in specific counties in NY State. Teachers can live anywhere. MTA employees (OK, technically state agency) can live almost anywhere.
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  #10  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 7:02 PM
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It is striking that if you compare southern Staten island to nearby parts of New Jersey it's way more GOP (some areas of Staten island were 75% Trump, while Middlesex County suburbs right across the Arthur Kill are generally at least narrowly Dem. However, this mostly seems to be because the NJ suburbs are way, way more diverse than southern Staten Island.
Southern SI is the most heavily Italian section of NYC these days, and is fairly high income. Also full of small business owners and tradespeople (high income/moderate education) which aligns with Trumpist support. Former Soviets are probably the second largest group, and also quite Trumpist.

The adjacent areas of NJ are heavily nonwhite and working class, and much older and more urban. Places like Perth Amboy are much more citylike than South Shore SI.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 7:27 PM
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does NYC have a residency requirement for city workers?

if so, are there de facto "cops & firemen" neighborhoods on the city fringes like chicago?


Is this a map of Cook County?
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  #12  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 7:27 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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It depends on the agency. Cops and firefighters have to live in specific counties in NY State. Teachers can live anywhere. MTA employees (OK, technically state agency) can live almost anywhere.
I think teachers are the only city employees that aren't bound by the requirement. Looking into the details, all city employees except teachers have to be NYC residents for the first two years of their employment, after which they are restricted to living in the 5 boroughs, on Long Island, or the counties of Westchester, Orange, or Putnam.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 7:28 PM
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Is this a map of Cook County?
yes, that's Cook County, which I guess is probably confusing to people who don't know Chicago's limits (the "cops and firemen" are barely within city limits).
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 7:34 PM
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The very "European ethnic" village of Norridge - completely surrounded by Chicago - voted 60% Trump.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...5eq-story.html


27% of the population is European-born, 14% in Poland, 5% in Italy.
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  #15  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 7:35 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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I think teachers are the only city employees that aren't bound by the requirement. Looking into the details, all city employees except teachers have to be NYC residents for the first two years of their employment, after which they are restricted to living in the 5 boroughs, on Long Island, or the counties of Westchester, Orange, or Putnam.
Eh, I have friends who work for a city agency, and they live in Fort Lee, NJ. Their boss lives in Princeton.

Pretty sure the rules are highly dependent on role, but there isn't any sort of residency requirement analogous to, say, Chicago. There is a 1980's-era ordinace that requires city residency for some classifications, but also the following:

"Section 12-120(b) provides that employees who have completed two continuous years of City service while maintaining residency in the City will remain in compliance with the residency law if they establish and maintain residency in Nassau, Westchester, Suffolk, Orange, Rockland or Putnam counties."

So if I'm reading this correctly, there are some jobs where you have to be a city resident for 21 months (90 days following hire date up to 2 years following hire date) but then you can live in the burbs, but only in NY State.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 7:40 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Eh, I have friends who work for a city agency, and they live in Fort Lee, NJ. Their boss lives in Princeton.

Pretty sure the rules are highly dependent on role, but there isn't any sort of residency requirement analogous to, say, Chicago. There is a 1980's-era ordinace that requires city residency for some classifications, but also the following:

"Section 12-120(b) provides that employees who have completed two continuous years of City service while maintaining residency in the City will remain in compliance with the residency law if they establish and maintain residency in Nassau, Westchester, Suffolk, Orange, Rockland or Putnam counties."

So if I'm reading this correctly, there are some jobs where you have to be a city resident for 21 months (90 days following hire date up to 2 years following hire date) but then you can live in the burbs, but only in NY State.
Yeah, they must be skirting the rule or working in an exempted role. I do know that the rule is enforced in the NYPD.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 7:48 PM
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The very "European ethnic" village of Norridge - completely surrounded by Chicago - voted 60% Trump.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...5eq-story.html


27% of the population is European-born, 14% in Poland, 5% in Italy.
yep, norridge and harwood heights, tiny little burbs completely surrounded the city, are both up in that reddish "cops & firemen" zone just east of ORD.

they both have a lot of ethnic whites who didn't "flight" out of the city because they aren't part of the city.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 7:59 PM
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Southern SI is the most heavily Italian section of NYC these days, and is fairly high income. Also full of small business owners and tradespeople (high income/moderate education) which aligns with Trumpist support. Former Soviets are probably the second largest group, and also quite Trumpist.

The adjacent areas of NJ are heavily nonwhite and working class, and much older and more urban. Places like Perth Amboy are much more citylike than South Shore SI.
I guess the critical question then is why did this class of people stay within the city (or "city" if you will) in NYC, where they decamped to the suburbs pretty much everywhere else in the country?
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:05 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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I guess the critical question then is why did this class of people stay within the city (or "city" if you will) in NYC, where they decamped to the suburbs pretty much everywhere else in the country?
There wasn't really a need to, I guess. The housing stock in southern SI looks like a generic suburb on Long Island or north Jersey. There aren't a lot of tacky exurban McMansion developments that they could've fled to in the NY area, so that's about as suburban as it gets for a family on a middle class income.
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Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:07 PM
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I guess the critical question then is why did this class of people stay within the city (or "city" if you will) in NYC, where they decamped to the suburbs pretty much everywhere else in the country?
anecdotal for sure but a former co-worker who was born in Ukraine and i guess grew up around Brighton Beach, when i asked her why her parents moved to SI she said her parents wanted something more suburban but still closeish to all the ethnic amenities they were used to in the city.
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