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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
I don't see why people rely on work to make friends/lovers. It's better to do that outside of work because eventually you will change jobs.
Bc that was my whole life in postcollege years. There was no other time, besides sleeping and showering. I was working 80-hour weeks, so all the socialization was within context of work. It would have been miserable if I couldn't go to the gym with friends over lunch, or sneak out and have a few drinks mid-afternoon.
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 6:46 PM
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There's also stuff like this going on along with junkies shooting up, smoking, and defecating on the trains and platforms:
Uh, pretty sure that stuff went on pre-pandemic. I don't think people stopped riding transit in March 2020 due to "junkies".
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:12 PM
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Uh, pretty sure that stuff went on pre-pandemic. I don't think people stopped riding transit in March 2020 due to "junkies".
Uh, of course it did, but it was not this widespread and when trains emptied due to the pandemic guess what was able to take hold? In 2021 for example robberies and assaults had doubled on SEPTA so you had less riders but double the crime, pretty clear picture.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:13 PM
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Uh, pretty sure that stuff went on pre-pandemic. I don't think people stopped riding transit in March 2020 due to "junkies".
Right. Like I said before, the quality and/or safety/cleanliness of the public transit infrastructure has little to nothing to do with the low ridership numbers we are still seeing.

It has to do with pandemic induced mass shift to semi-permanent remote work.

Sure, there might be a handful of people that are scared to ride public transit due to highly publicized crimes, but the vast majority would return to riding public transit if they had to out of necessity for work, or for convenience. Remote work is out of the control of public transit agencies, so for now, they have to focus on improving convenience. It could also be said that crime might actually go down if riders were to return at pre-pandemic levels. More witnesses, less opportunities to get away.

We could have police officers on every single train car in America and ridership numbers would still stay the same. Maybe it'll go up 0.01%, but that's about it.
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:20 PM
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Huge gains in ridership not only compared to the previous year but also compared to the previous quarter. Steep upward trend that is continuing. What more can you ask for.
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:23 PM
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We could have police officers on every single train car in America and ridership numbers would still stay the same. Maybe it'll go up 0.01%, but that's about it.
This is not accurate here and if you did this you would see a drastic change within a week. Many people here rely on mass transit outside of just for to/from work and have been avoiding some of the trains that they were regular riders on due to the situation right now.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
This is not accurate here and if you did this you would see a drastic change within a week. Many people here rely on mass transit outside of just for to/from work and have been avoiding some of the trains that they were regular riders on due to the situation right now.
Maybe in Philly, but crime is not the primary factor for low ridership in the Bay Area.
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
This is not accurate here and if you did this you would see a drastic change within a week. Many people here rely on mass transit outside of just for to/from work and have been avoiding some of the trains that they were regular riders on due to the situation right now.
You're telling me that Philly transit, prior to March 2020, didn't have a bum/junkie issue, and now does, and that's the reason for the depressed ridership? Nope.

Philly ridership seems to be growing pretty robustly, BTW. Which is almost certainly explained by a growing share of in-office work.
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
You're telling me that Philly transit, prior to March 2020, didn't have a bum/junkie issue, and now does, and that's the reason for the depressed ridership? Nope.

Philly ridership seems to be growing pretty robustly, BTW. Which is almost certainly explained by a growing share of in-office work.
I don't think that's what is being argued. The argument isn't that crime on transit didn't exist before... It's that it's far worse now than it was pre-pandemic, hence it's having an impact on people's decision to take transit.

For example, here in Chicago, I would rather spend the extra money and take an Uber late night as opposed to taking the Red line. I'm not sure what that line of thinking would have been pre-pandemic as I didn't live in Chicago then.
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
You're telling me that Philly transit, prior to March 2020, didn't have a bum/junkie issue, and now does, and that's the reason for the depressed ridership? Nope.

Philly ridership seems to be growing pretty robustly, BTW. Which is almost certainly explained by a growing share of in-office work.
See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
I don't think that's what is being argued. The argument isn't that crime on transit didn't exist before... It's that it's far worse now than it was pre-pandemic, hence it's having an impact on people's decision to take transit.

For example, here in Chicago, I would rather spend the extra money and take an Uber late night as opposed to taking the Red line. I'm not sure what that line of thinking would have been pre-pandemic as I didn't live in Chicago then.
Exactly.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 8:18 PM
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I do think, for a certain age cohort, it must be odd and isolating to be permanent WFH. In my post-college years, almost all my socializing and relationships came via work. Granted, this can still happen via remote work, but the socialization patterns were disrupted. Obviously people aren't going to be having dinner, drinks or activities together on a whim when they're all in different locations.

Is anyone still in forced permanent WFH? Seems like most places are either hybrid or have mandated full returns to the office, so the only ones still working from home 5 days a week are the ones who want do that.

And for all the talk of antisocial young workers refusing to go into the office - at least in my limited experience - the opposite is true. Most of the 20/30-somethings I work with are in the office 4-5 days a week. It's the late 30s-50s demographics with families and homes in the suburbs that are the ones who rarely come in.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 8:28 PM
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Is anyone still in forced permanent WFH? Seems like most places are either hybrid or have mandated full returns to the office, so the only ones still working from home 5 days a week are the ones who want do that.
My wife is is forced permanent WFH. We have many friends and colleagues in such situations. I'm hybrid.
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
And for all the talk of antisocial young workers refusing to go into the office - at least in my limited experience - the opposite is true. Most of the 20/30-somethings I work with are in the office 4-5 days a week. It's the late 30s-50s demographics with families and homes in the suburbs that are the ones who rarely come in.
Agreed, but this speaks to age-based preferences. Most hybrid workplaces allow you to come in as often as you'd like. Not surprisingly, 20-somethings living close to office are more apt to come in than 40-something suburban soccer moms.
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 8:48 PM
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Not surprisingly, 20-somethings living close to office are more apt to come in than 40-something suburban soccer moms.
Right, but the idea is that it has nothing to do with social aptitude. Some of my friendliest and most social coworkers are suburban soccer moms. They just prefer to work from home due to the flexibility it offers with achieving their desired work life balance.
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 10:53 PM
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Has crime and disorder really increased on trains and buses, or is it that people perceive an increase in crime and disorder because there are fewer orderly, non-criminal riders on the trains and buses?
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 11:14 PM
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I am not sure how much more improvement in usage Chicago will see compared to other cities unless massive improvements occur at CTA asap. Sadly all levels of leadership do not seem to care. 15-20 min headways on the two busiest rail lines during rush hour have become daily occurrences, which leads to pre-pandemic level overcrowding only because there are 50%+ fewer trains running. Most bus routes are even worse. No one is going to voluntarily commute around the city if it is both overcrowded and horribly inefficient timing. It also helps contribute to the perceptions of crime as you have fewer buses and trains for the homeless or disorderly to be spread out on.
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 12:14 AM
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Has crime and disorder really increased on trains and buses, or is it that people perceive an increase in crime and disorder because there are fewer orderly, non-criminal riders on the trains and buses?
I don't think it's this. Rather, there's a right-wing narrative about cities, and part of that narrative is "transit is overrun with junkies, hobos and thugs". It's the same narrative that claims cities were burned down in riots in 2020, that homeless camps have taken over the streets, that welfare-queen illegals have taken over the populace, that schools are nothing but drag queens force-teaching CRT. It's basically crap.

I've ridden the trains extensively before, during and after the pandemic, and see no major changes. Granted, I haven't ridden in other U.S. cities since the pandemic began, but I doubt it's particularly different. I rode the trains in Toronto a few months ago, and it was the same as always.
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 12:46 AM
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I don't think it's this. Rather, there's a right-wing narrative about cities, and part of that narrative is "transit is overrun with junkies, hobos and thugs". It's the same narrative that claims cities were burned down in riots in 2020, that homeless camps have taken over the streets, that welfare-queen illegals have taken over the populace, that schools are nothing but drag queens force-teaching CRT. It's basically crap.

I've ridden the trains extensively before, during and after the pandemic, and see no major changes. Granted, I haven't ridden in other U.S. cities since the pandemic began, but I doubt it's particularly different. I rode the trains in Toronto a few months ago, and it was the same as always.
Wrong.

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news...me-on-the-cta/

There's obviously a narrative from some folks, but the numbers don't lie. This, as I said, has an impact on people's decisions to take transit in the city. During the day, most of us don't care or notice, but it's later at night along certain routes.

So - To circle back to the original topic of this thread, this is having an impact, along with more people working from home. Now, the impact might vary from city to city. How bad is it in San Francisco? The geography of that city is different, and many folks got priced out from being close to work. Given how many people are in tech out there, I suspect the impact from WFH may be larger than a city like Chicago where the economy is more mixed.
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 1:07 AM
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Has crime and disorder really increased on trains and buses, or is it that people perceive an increase in crime and disorder because there are fewer orderly, non-criminal riders on the trains and buses?

I won't speak for all cities, but I know in Toronto at least that "security incidents" on the TTC have skyrocketed in the past couple years:


https://www.reddit.com/r/TTC/comment...b2013_apr2022/


There's the caveat that these are just the number of alerts given rather than actual crime stats, but there also have been several prominent unprovoked murders & assaults on transit in just the past year (whereas normally there would be ~0). There's also no right-wing agenda to make transit or cities look bad here - it's just objectively gotten worse.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 6:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Uh, pretty sure that stuff went on pre-pandemic. I don't think people stopped riding transit in March 2020 due to "junkies".
In LA, it was very minimal pre pandemic.. Shit show since
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 3:36 PM
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Has crime and disorder really increased on trains and buses, or is it that people perceive an increase in crime and disorder because there are fewer orderly, non-criminal riders on the trains and buses?
It feels worse due to a few combined factors:
1) There likely is a slight increase in the number of homeless, mentally-unstable, or disorderly-types to camping out in stations and subway cars. Train riders often give them grief for being unfeeling individuals, but they are human, and they will go somewhere with the least resistance against them. And emptier trains and train stations offer lot less resistance.
2) I dislike politicizing, but the post George-Floyd BLM era briefly turned much of the world against the police, who were among the primary enforcement in clearing out train & train station squatters.
3) Likewise, it also led to well-meaning but poorly-implemented policies like bail reform. While bail reform is great for low-threat or wrongly-accused people getting their freedom more easily, it also leads to repeat criminals (some of whom are violent and/or mentally unstable) being let out into society.

On the plus side, we now have a greater awareness of mental health due to it being as stigmatized within the so-called "normal" populace. So hopefully, we can continue these efforts in institutionalizing mentally unstable individuals who often end up on the streets due to their inability and lack of resources (financially and via family & friends) to live a "normal" life.
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