Transit Fantasies

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by chowhou

There will almost certainly be a station at Capilano Rd. and at Park Royal which should be more than enough capacity IMO. Say what you want about West Vancouver council but they wouldn't block a station at Park Royal.

If Metrotown can be well served by 3 stations, the lower Capilano can probably get by with 2 stations....

Thanks, sorry, I should have clarified that I was referring to the proposals crossing west of Waterfront and turning east to Lonsdale Quay. Anything coming west from the Second Narrows would in all likelihood go to Park Royal and include a station at or near Capilano and Marine, which would also service Squamish Nation developments.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Thanks, sorry, I should have clarified that I was referring to the proposals crossing west of Waterfront and turning east to Lonsdale Quay. Anything coming west from the Second Narrows would in all likelihood go to Park Royal and include a station at or near Capilano and Marine, which would also service Squamish Nation developments.

Sorry my mistake, I forgot for a moment what thread this is. :

Realistically I think the Second Narrows crossing is a foregone conclusion, but yeah in a hypothetical Norgate crossing situation a single station in Norgate would definitely not synergise well with the future Lower Capilano area.

[dandor31]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Throwing this into the mix for the North Shore rapid transit concepts:

Vancouver Sun: Squamish Nation plans to develop 350 acres, most of it in North Vancouver and West Vancouver



IMHO, if the development around the Lions Gate Bridge area is even half what is proposed for Sen̓áḵw, a future North Shore SkyTrain line would have to include a station in this area (rather than having Norgate as the westernmost point).

EDIT: The Norgate station is in reference to proposals to cross the inlet west of Waterfront and then turn east to Lonsdale Quay. It would seem a given that a line coming from the east (after crossing at Second Narrows) would extend west to Park Royal.

I'm quite excited for the Senakw development. Imagine how much more housing there would be if this was allowed more. This goes to show how much municipal zoning really is stymieing residential development.

[NetMapel]

Originally Posted by fredinno

From http://www.instpp.ca/uploads/1/2/1/6...ull-report.pdf



The Centerm expansion only goes up to the point where they need to leave space for the Seabus. It's not like they don't have the demand.
Removing Seabus would allow for another 1-2 terminals on Centerm by docking boats North-South and filling in the area between CRAB and Centerm.


Seabus frequencies are around 15 minutes and crossing times are 12 min.

Even just comparing average speeds (Skytrain would not have stops through the inlet, so it's even worse for Seabus), you're looking at Skytrain being faster even if you double the length of Skytrain.

The reason we want Skytrain to NS is because Seabus sucks.





Yeah, and the 2nd Narrows line doesn't need to be Skytrain.

I think that chart signals to me that potentially a good SkyTrain expansion is to follow the #130 bus from
- Phibbs Exchange (maybe extend northward to Capilano U?)
- Cross the Iron Workers
- Goes along Willingdon to Metrotown
- From Metrotown along 49th or Killarney
- Cross river near Knights bridge to Richmond
- End at at destination Richmond station such as Bridgeport station or Richmond-Brighouse.

This covers inter-city travels between North Vancouver, Burnaby and Richmond. It makes it more possible even for people to use the SkyTrain from Burnaby/Surrey/New Westminster to travel to Richmond and vice versa since they wouldn’t have to travel needlessly far to get to travel between. I think a big part of what we’re missing now in the region is travels between the non-Vancouver regional centers like Burnaby, Richmond and Surrey. This would improve that dramatically and you can see travel demand even from North Vancouver to Burnaby. This route also hits many major destinations like Brentwood, BCIT, Metrotown, IKEA Richmond, and open up Killarney for transit-oriented development. There can be a future SkyTrain extension along Hastings as well that could intersect with Willingdon/Hasting for connection to downtown.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Dunno about Richmond, there's going to be more pressure to head west toward Kerrisdale and UBC; at best, it splits at Granville to cover Marpole and Bridgeport.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

I think that chart signals to me that potentially a good SkyTrain expansion is to follow the #130 bus from
- Phibbs Exchange (maybe extend northward to Capilano U?)
- Cross the Iron Workers
- Goes along Willingdon to Metrotown
- From Metrotown along 49th or Killarney
- Cross river near Knights bridge to Richmond
- End at at destination Richmond station such as Bridgeport station or Richmond-Brighouse.

This covers inter-city travels between North Vancouver, Burnaby and Richmond. It makes it more possible even for people to use the SkyTrain from Burnaby/Surrey/New Westminster to travel to Richmond and vice versa since they wouldn’t have to travel needlessly far to get to travel between. I think a big part of what we’re missing now in the region is travels between the non-Vancouver regional centers like Burnaby, Richmond and Surrey. This would improve that dramatically and you can see travel demand even from North Vancouver to Burnaby. This route also hits many major destinations like Brentwood, BCIT, Metrotown, IKEA Richmond, and open up Killarney for transit-oriented development. There can be a future SkyTrain extension along Hastings as well that could intersect with Willingdon/Hasting for connection to downtown.

Continuing Expo to Norgate + Park Royal + Lonsdale does the same thing, though, but includes the massive Vancouver-NS connection.

Basically, the Phibbs-Brentwood-MetroTown connector is a bypass connector- a 'ring road' for the transit network.


There's also not much between MetroTown and Bridgeport. There's River District (because CoV thought it was a good place to build condos in- instead of say, Mt. Pleasant... ) but the rest are mostly random suburbs and industrial, making the pathway much longer without gaining much extra demand.

IKEA is NOT a major destination hub. Even the people who go there are going to go there by car (because furniture.

[waves]

This instpp picture can be a little graphically deceiving because the 23,000 trips are shown pointing at downtown, when in reality these trips are for Vancouver proper and are spread out across Vancouver from UBC to Broadway to the East Van tech center. A Skytrain from Lonsdale to Phibbs to Brentwood would not just connect people to Burnaby but it would also connect the full Broadway corridor to UBC (as the UBC extension is likely to be built first).

Also to all, Hello! Yes, I am still around and read things here time to time.

Originally Posted by fredinno

From http://www.instpp.ca/uploads/1/2/1/6...ull-report.pdf

.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by waves

This instpp picture can be a little graphically deceiving because the 23,000 trips are shown pointing at downtown, when in reality these trips are for Vancouver proper and are spread out across Vancouver from UBC to Broadway to the East Van tech center. A Skytrain from Lonsdale to Phibbs to Brentwood would not just connect people to Burnaby but it would also connect the full Broadway corridor to UBC (as the UBC extension is likely to be built first).

Also to all, Hello! Yes, I am still around and read things here time to time.

Cool!

Expo-NS would still capture those riders.
You need to transfer no matter which way you go (either to Canada or one of the buses out of Downtown Vancouver). It captures the most riders (other than those coming in to/from Phibbs or East Van), as the existing SkyTrain network already funnels into DT.

As I said earlier, it's a direct connector vs ring road situation.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Existing SkyTrains connect to both Narrows; ridership has been proven to be either equal between a Park Royal or Phibbs crossing, or slightly in favour of Second against Norgate, and there's already more than a few solid connectors between downtown and the North Shore.

It's really a choice of whether we need every commuter to funnel into the CBD and back out, or whether going around can be an option too.

[fredinno]

.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Why is it ok to go to Rupert instead of Brentwood but not Braid instead of Lougheed?

Note that tram-train (and upgrades to the current bus system) could allow you to go directly to the hub stations:
(Note there may be grade-separation where the path intersects Willingdon and its ramps.)

Same with Lougheed and Government Rd (grade separation across Government Rd.):

(TBF, the Lougheed pathway is ~1.5x shorter than the Brentwood path.)

I would argue extending to Vancouver actually makes it better. Going from Surrey to Waterfront requires going across Skytrain, passing through a large # of Expo Stations you don't care about (35 min total from Scott Road vs 30 min for similar WCE passage).

Going to Lougheed or Brentwood on SkyTrain requires an extra 2 transfers.


Dunno, I would be in the target market for such a bus. I don't see how it's beneficial.

200 St makes a lot of sense, since it's the arterial lifeblood of the Walnut Grove-Clayton-Langley City development 'blob' and connects Maple Ridge with Langley.
1/3rd of all people travelling on 200 St. already use the 200 St. buses to travel on the corridor and is nearly at FTN levels of service. The demand is already there (as far as buses in Langley go).


Also, Hwy 1 and the SFPR exist for East-West travel, which doesn't exist for the 200 St. corridor.


This is one of those cases where expanding out the bus network (Best Bus) makes more sense than a fancy 'RapidBus.'

Buses here tend to arrive every 30 minutes most of the time and wind around to hub exchanges. There's a severe lack of east-west bus routes as well.

---
Frustratingly, the current plans for buses excludes an express bus on the SFPR.

The fact Langley wants to turn the Salmon Fraser Uplands into an industrial park now means Fraser Hwy post-Langley Bypass will may also get future upgrades to take the additional traffic (like Hwy 10), so an express bus from Abbotsford directly to Langley City may become viable in the future.

I don't recall saying either station was a good choice, only that Rupert is a slightly better pick than Braid. If you can somehow get Lougheed and Brentwood for your tram line, by all means - just don't count on it, or on even that being a big hit.
The vast majority of commuters are around the Expo, Canada and downtown core, so you might be better off having a stop on Commercial (somehow). And bear in mind that more tracks on the street means more capital spending.

Alright, so an FTN to Carvolth and Walnut Grove instead of RapidBuses. I'm not picky.

The SFPR is unfortunately 1/3rd swamp, 1/3rd farmlands and 1/5th industrial. There may end up being a River District that justifies a #80, but that's probably a long way out.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I don't recall saying either station was a good choice, only that Rupert is a slightly better pick than Braid. If you can somehow get Lougheed and Brentwood for your tram line, by all means - just don't count on it, or on even that being a big hit.
The vast majority of commuters are around the Expo, Canada and downtown core, so you might be better off having a stop on Commercial (somehow). And bear in mind that more tracks on the street means more capital spending.

Alright, so an FTN to Carvolth and Walnut Grove instead of RapidBuses. I'm not picky.

The SFPR is unfortunately 1/3rd swamp, 1/3rd farmlands and 1/5th industrial. There may end up being a River District that justifies a #80, but that's probably a long way out.

Eh, fair enough.
Never really considered the Commercial-Broadway one. Good idea.

Interestingly, there's a SFPR bus from Scott Road to Tsawwassen, but not one from Scott Road to Carvloth:


No clue why.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I see an MTN line from 120th down 96th to 208th, which I guess kind of counts? Fairly sure that if a Valley train ever has a station at Carvolth, that 88th line will adjust accordingly.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I see an MTN line from 120th down 96th to 208th, which I guess kind of counts? Fairly sure that if a Valley train ever has a station at Carvolth, that 88th line will adjust accordingly.

Not really.
That increases the travel time from 17 min (SFPR) (max 30 min worst-case) to Scott Road to 34 min off-peak.
Potentially up to an hour with the worst possible traffic on 96th.

[cganuelas1995]

With the battery electric buses coming online as well as AI and autonomous/driverless cars becoming more and more of a thing, maybe we could see an extended nightbus network, giving more 24 hour transit to zone 2 and 3.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

With the battery electric buses coming online as well as AI and autonomous/driverless cars becoming more and more of a thing, maybe we could see an extended nightbus network, giving more 24 hour transit to zone 2 and 3.

Maybe. I hope we see better frequencies in the evening as well.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I think maybe let's wait for autonomous AIs to stop driving their vehicles into walls before we think about buses.

Unless we're talking about the ones that only clock 20 km/h, or the ones that require two drivers to operate?

[madog222]

I really don't see autonomous bus service coming any time soon. Even then I doubt the cost savings would be enough to justify extremely low yield service.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I think maybe let's wait for autonomous AIs to stop driving their vehicles into walls before we think about buses.

Unless we're talking about the ones that only clock 20 km/h, or the ones that require two drivers to operate?

Eh, 'autonomous' right now basically just means Tesla autopilot.
It makes drivers' lives easier (and you could cut some costs that way), but doesn't remove the need for drivers.

[chowhou]

We have autonomous busses already, they're called Skytrains.