Transit Fantasies

[mcj]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

It would break my heart to have Pacific Central still be grossly underutilized just because it looks nice and I think could really be dressed up with Thornton Park in front and the new development that will be spurred by the hospital. But it certainly doesn't have the same opportunities to integrate with multi-modal transport the way Waterfront does.

Agreed, I'm a bit hesitant to suggest which the end terminus would be. Either Waterfront or Pacific Central I would be happy about, assuming the final choice comes with a large scale rehabilitation plan. You just can't beat Waterfront's current and future access to multi-modal transportation though and with cold logic that would be the better choice for that reason alone.

Ideally in the long term VIA steps up service in BC and Pacific Central gets the love it deserves.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Would anything need to be "negotiated" to do your proposal? I would assume if Canada is willing to pay for the quad tracks and the extra stations, the U.S. wouldn't care about adding them especially if International trains still only stop at the terminus and the Surrey station and aren't delayed by the local trains. But I wonder if you need any of those local stations past Guildford. All of the super commuters from the Valley would already be on board the train, and assuming they are either commuting to Surrey or Vancouver I don't think it would be worth building the three additional stations.
.

I think issues with track ownership and rights would be the point of negotiation, just something in writing that says we can run additional service on the tracks. It was brought up as a potential issue to this idea another time something like this was discussed.

As far as the stations are concerned, that would be my maximum buildout proposal, however they would need to lay the tracks so that building out the stations is possible when the time comes. An initial operating segment of local express trains between Guildford and Waterfront would make sense currently. If the tracks go down the TCH then Carvolth is right there though and would make express bus service to the Fraser Valley slightly more efficient, plus there will be the BRT service between Maple Ridge and Langley Centre in the next decade. The suggestion for the 232st / Fraser Highway station is also just due to the tracks running through that area anyways and would give some connectivity to Aldergrove/South Langley, although the ridership would be an issue with current population.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Also, how you would fit four tracks alongside the TCH? There certainly wouldn't be enough space to put them in the median and after 160 St in Surrey there isn't extra space beside the highway, so you're either looking at expensive tunneling or expropriation.

Four tracks would just be for the station areas, most of the trackage would just be double tracks.

I'd imagine the station at 104 Ave to be either where the old toll station for the Port Mann bridge was east of the interchange, or elevated above the interchange on the south side of the TCH.

Expropriation after 104 Ave is kind of inevitable, there's not even space for two tracks. Plus we'd be expropriating the full length of the track from the border until it meets the TCH anyways, it's East Langley but that's still going to be an expensive expropriation effort. Not to mention all the expropriation/tunneling on the north side of the Fraser that would have to happen in any scenario.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Could you explain what you mean? Do you want a line headed north from Guildford beside the Port Mann in Coquitlam?

that would be ideal and I was thinking they need something like that when I was on the Skytrain a couple of weeks ago. It was freaking packed.

Surrey needs more than one way out of Surrey via Skytrain, the current option is always packed. We get on at Gateway and can never get a seat heading out. and now with the extension planned and even more development the already over loaded line is just going to continue to get worse I think.

An option that gets people out of Surrey and across the fraser and connects them to the M line directly would be great. I could see Guildford Mall and Lougheed Mall being connected with a skytrain, moreso than Guildford and Coquitlam Centre. Especially with the broadway extension now it would be really nice and a great way to connect from Surrey to the Canada line to get to the airport.

when they have to run a bus bridge between Surrey and New West, cause of Skytrain issues it's just a mess, and is no way to get people to give up their cars to commute, just not pleasant to use transit. Some kind of secondary crossing is badly needed.

[Lexus]

The actual numbers were posted here a while ago, but I think Expo is only at approximately 50% of it's theoretical capacity. Another 50% can be added by adding more trains and reducing headway time, and moving from 4 to 5 cars (Which is already confirmed to happen gradually over the next 2-6 years).
Perhaps once the region grows along millennium line it would make sense to have a connection to it in future.

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by Lexus

The actual numbers were posted here a while ago, but I think Expo is only at approximately 50% of it's theoretical capacity. Another 50% can be added by adding more trains and reducing headway time, and moving from 4 to 5 cars (Which is already confirmed to happen gradually over the next 2-6 years).
Perhaps once the region grows along millennium line it would make sense to have a connection to it in future.

Do you know where on the forum (maybe which thread to dig through) I could find those numbers? I'd be genuinely curious.

Edit: assuming those are numbers for the Expo by itself. TransLink usually bundles the ridership numbers for the Expo and Millennium

[Lexus]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

Do you know where on the forum (maybe which thread to dig through) I could find those numbers? I'd be genuinely curious.

Edit: assuming those are numbers for the Expo by itself. TransLink usually bundles the ridership numbers for the Expo and Millennium

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...ostcount=20014

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by Lexus

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...ostcount=20014

Sweet, thanks!

[Migrant_Coconut]

SkyTrain service has managed 90-second headways in the past, so just with napkin math, 40 trains x 4 cars/train x 125 passengers/car is 20k pphpd. The theoretical maximum of 5-car trains every 75 seconds gives 30k. And right now, the busiest part of the network is Stadium to Metrotown at... 10k. No need to worry about crowding for a very, very long time.

I vote for Pacific Central as the HSR terminus. Waterfront's already crowded enough with local commuters, and it doesn't look like it has the space to also accommodate international traffic and customs.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Could you explain what you mean? Do you want a line headed north from Guildford beside the Port Mann in Coquitlam?

Originally Posted by SpongeG

... An option that gets people out of Surrey and across the fraser and connects them to the M line directly would be great. I could see Guildford Mall and Lougheed Mall being connected with a skytrain, moreso than Guildford and Coquitlam Centre. Especially with the broadway extension now it would be really nice and a great way to connect from Surrey to the Canada line to get to the airport...

Either one. I know neither are particularly high-demand or high-TOD routes, but I'm thinking the Production Way spur'll become even more of a nuisance in the future and will need a substitute.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

...I vote for Pacific Central as the HSR terminus. Waterfront's already crowded enough with local commuters, and it doesn't look like it has the space to also accommodate international traffic and customs...

I'd tend to agree. There's still easy access to SkyTrain, and it avoids an expensive high-speed tunnel under the downtown peninsula. (Save that money for the West End and other lines!) While you lose the walking access to some hotels as you would have at Waterfront, for many travellers it would be pretty much the same to use SkyTrain from Waterfront or Main to get to hotels near Burrard and Granville stations.

As for access to SkyTrain, it is already a short walk and it should be easy enough to build an elevated or tunnelled direct connection (perhaps with a moving walkway) from Pacific Central to the Expo Line if desired. TransLink could also implement a dedicated shuttle to the Millennium Line at Main and Broadway . Beyond that, it would be expensive but if the traffic/tourism value really warranted it they could always rebuild Main Street station to be part of Pacific Central. While this would not be feasible for much of the existing SkyTrain network, Main Street station would lend itself to a move because of several factors:

• the line is above ground in the area rather than underground
• Vancouver is considering removing the viaducts, which frees up a lot of space
• the existing tracks were built to maneuver around and under the viaducts, whereas a line that remains at a constant elevation may be better for redeveloping the area
• the line could go east toward Union and then south along Station before rejoining the existing guideway
• it would also put the station closer to the new hospital and free up space along Quebec
• there might be potential for a proper bus exchange in Thornton Park or nearby

As I said, this would be expensive, but if we're going to build an expensive HSR line it may be worth it as part of that plan.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

As for access to SkyTrain, it is already a short walk and it should be easy enough to build an elevated or tunnelled direct connection (perhaps with a moving walkway) from Pacific Central to the Expo Line if desired.

The walk from PCS to Main is 200 metres and I'm guessing the transfer from WCE to the Canada Line at Waterfront is longer than that.

I don't know if moving the station is in the cards because although you'd be closer to the hospital you would be farther away from False Creek, Science World, and OV. And I also don't know where you would move it to.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

The walk from PCS to Main is 200 metres and I'm guessing the transfer from WCE to the Canada Line at Waterfront is longer than that.

I don't know if moving the station is in the cards because although you'd be closer to the hospital you would be farther away from False Creek, Science World, and OV. And I also don't know where you would move it to.

Yes, a station move is unlikely (IMHO) as it would be very expensive for a very limited gain. The only way I could see it being justified is if there's a perceived benefit for tourism or - more likely - for the redevelopment of the area around the viaducts. If there's a substantial increase in density in that area, one could consider building a new station somewhere in the area of Union and Main or Union/Quebec. If we're only dealing with an HSR connection, it would be far more practical to create a new entrance/exit from the east end of the SkyTrain station and build a covered access route to the rail station. This would be comparable to the connection between Waterfront Station and the SeaBus terminal, which is a similar distance.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I vote for Pacific Central as the HSR terminus. Waterfront's already crowded enough with local commuters, and it doesn't look like it has the space to also accommodate international traffic and customs.

I wouldn't exactly call Waterfront crowded, I commute through it daily and compared to even Union Station in Toronto (might as well Asian/European stations I've been to), it's pretty quiet.

Sure it doesn't have the space currently, a substantial renovation would be required, but the city has been looking into that since 2009.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by mcj

I wouldn't exactly call Waterfront crowded, I commute through it daily and compared to even Union Station in Toronto (might as well Asian/European stations I've been to), it's pretty quiet.

Sure it doesn't have the space currently, a substantial renovation would be required, but the city has been looking into that since 2009.

Obviously HSR would justify a significant renovation of any terminus and intermediate stations.

But when I think of Waterfront being "crowded" I'm more thinking of the limited opportunities to expand the footprint of the station. Waterfront would likely need to add an additional platform and some tracks. Since the freight yard abuts the station, it would require some cooperation from CP. Compare this to PCS which could easily expand to the north by taking some parking spots.

The other issue with the station is you will need to have enough physical space for security and customs facilities, and a separate waiting area for pre-cleared international passengers. Not only does PCS already have some of these facilities because it serves Amtrak, but it would seem pretty easy to reconfigure the floor plan of a long rectangular building that sits perpendicular to all of the tracks. Compare this to Waterfront where the space in the existing building is not easily divided among pre-cleared and WCE passengers and you also have to juggle the throughput of passengers to the Seabus terminal and the Expo line.

The challenges with Waterfront can be fixed if you can take some of CP's yard, but even the Perkins&Will dream station in the article you shared doesn't seem to have the sort of amenities you would want for international passengers. Waterfront would need a much more substantial buildout of the existing building so that once international passengers clear security they can still access washrooms, dining options, and comfortable waiting areas.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Obviously HSR would justify a significant renovation of any terminus and intermediate stations.

But when I think of Waterfront being "crowded" I'm more thinking of the limited opportunities to expand the footprint of the station. Waterfront would likely need to add an additional platform and some tracks. Since the freight yard abuts the station, it would require some cooperation from CP. Compare this to PCS which could easily expand to the north by taking some parking spots.

The other issue with the station is you will need to have enough physical space for security and customs facilities, and a separate waiting area for pre-cleared international passengers. Not only does PCS already have some of these facilities because it serves Amtrak, but it would seem pretty easy to reconfigure the floor plan of a long rectangular building that sits perpendicular to all of the tracks. Compare this to Waterfront where the space in the existing building is not easily divided among pre-cleared and WCE passengers and you also have to juggle the throughput of passengers to the Seabus terminal and the Expo line.

The challenges with Waterfront can be fixed if you can take some of CP's yard, but even the Perkins&Will dream station in the article you shared doesn't seem to have the sort of amenities you would want for international passengers. Waterfront would need a much more substantial buildout of the existing building so that once international passengers clear security they can still access washrooms, dining options, and comfortable waiting areas.

Pac Central doesn't either. That parking lot on the north side is difficult for trains to access due to being behind the service station.

You would need to build on top of the tracks, same as on Waterfront, or on top of Thornton Park.

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

I'd tend to agree. There's still easy access to SkyTrain, and it avoids an expensive high-speed tunnel under the downtown peninsula. (Save that money for the West End and other lines!) While you lose the walking access to some hotels as you would have at Waterfront, for many travellers it would be pretty much the same to use SkyTrain from Waterfront or Main to get to hotels near Burrard and Granville stations.

As for access to SkyTrain, it is already a short walk and it should be easy enough to build an elevated or tunnelled direct connection (perhaps with a moving walkway) from Pacific Central to the Expo Line if desired. TransLink could also implement a dedicated shuttle to the Millennium Line at Main and Broadway . Beyond that, it would be expensive but if the traffic/tourism value really warranted it they could always rebuild Main Street station to be part of Pacific Central. While this would not be feasible for much of the existing SkyTrain network, Main Street station would lend itself to a move because of several factors:

• the line is above ground in the area rather than underground
• Vancouver is considering removing the viaducts, which frees up a lot of space
• the existing tracks were built to maneuver around and under the viaducts, whereas a line that remains at a constant elevation may be better for redeveloping the area
• the line could go east toward Union and then south along Station before rejoining the existing guideway
• it would also put the station closer to the new hospital and free up space along Quebec
• there might be potential for a proper bus exchange in Thornton Park or nearby

As I said, this would be expensive, but if we're going to build an expensive HSR line it may be worth it as part of that plan.

It's hard to access from Richmond, who have to go backwards on Expo on the busiest section of the line.
Also, any Hastings or North Shore Line will most likely have a terminus at Waterfront. Pacific Central is only accessible from Expo, and funneling more passengers into the busiest section of the Expo is not smart.

What exactly are you proposing? Moving Pacific Central onto Thornton Park to move it closer to Main St. Science World Station? I don't understand.

Also, no one would use a Shuttle from Broadway to Science World unless it's part of some wider LRT/BRT network (ie. connection to False Creek Streetcar.) It's way too slow vs just crowding onto Expo for the 1-2 stop journey.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by fredinno

What exactly are you proposing? Moving Pacific Central onto Thornton Park to move it closer to Main St. Science World Station? I don't understand.

"...rebuild Main Street station to be part of Pacific Central..."

[Migrant_Coconut]

Personally, I'd build the HSR terminal at "Level 2" on top of the existing tracks, possibly including the HandyDart depot, and integrate that with PCS proper; there should be enough room left over for a Level 2 (or 3) overpass to the SkyTrain.

[Helvetia]

Would it be feasible to route the HSR into a tunnel near Pacific Central and then join up with the Hastings Line tunnel to Waterfront? Double-track HSR on the bottom, double-track Hastings Line on top. Would be $$$ but any plan to bring HSR to Waterfront would be.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

Would it be feasible to route the HSR into a tunnel near Pacific Central and then join up with the Hastings Line tunnel to Waterfront? Double-track HSR on the bottom, double-track Hastings Line on top. Would be $$$ but any plan to bring HSR to Waterfront would be.

As you say, it would be $$$, but I think it's a nifty idea and deserves serious consideration. But that's just an opinion. Others might disagree.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Personally, I'd build the HSR terminal at "Level 2" on top of the existing tracks, possibly including the HandyDart depot, and integrate that with PCS proper; there should be enough room left over for a Level 2 (or 3) overpass to the SkyTrain.

I would point out that doing so would destroy a good chunk of Thornton Park.

Also, that just demolishing Thornton Park would actually be the most economical solution here (and viable, ignoring the part where it's a park) - considering that Vancouver can't sell the airspace the same way as they can on Waterfront considering nearby zoning and industrial uses as well as the viewcones.

Unless they need to expand St. Paul's onto the rail tracks, they wouldn't be able to recoup the cost of building on top of the rail tracks to build a transit hub.

Waterfront may actually be cheaper accounting for redevelopment potential (depending on if you're willing to block the view of the harbor from Gastown, which last time Vancouver City Council wasn't willing to do.)


Unless you move the interregional bus terminal at Pacific Central or the rail depot, there's no space for extra tracks to put an HSR station.

It would be nice to have a covered connection from St. Paul's to Main Street Station, though.

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

"...rebuild Main Street station to be part of Pacific Central..."

How exactly? Moving Main Street Station east is not possible anymore due to the new office/industrial building that's being built next to Pacific Central.

Originally Posted by Helvetia

Do you know where on the forum (maybe which thread to dig through) I could find those numbers? I'd be genuinely curious.

Edit: assuming those are numbers for the Expo by itself. TransLink usually bundles the ridership numbers for the Expo and Millennium

https://www.canadianconsultingengine...yVancouver.pdf

The numbers TransLink is using. Add an extra 5-10% capacity from the new MKIII/Vs

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

SkyTrain service has managed 90-second headways in the past, so just with napkin math, 40 trains x 4 cars/train x 125 passengers/car is 20k pphpd. The theoretical maximum of 5-car trains every 75 seconds gives 30k. And right now, the busiest part of the network is Stadium to Metrotown at... 10k. No need to worry about crowding for a very, very long time.

I vote for Pacific Central as the HSR terminus. Waterfront's already crowded enough with local commuters, and it doesn't look like it has the space to also accommodate international traffic and customs.




Either one. I know neither are particularly high-demand or high-TOD routes, but I'm thinking the Production Way spur'll become even more of a nuisance in the future and will need a substitute.

Skytrain at its absolute peak has a pphpd of 15,000 (2 minute headways). The link from the forum assumes 3 min headways, which isn't the case.
Also, from the report:


Even just the low-end estimate brings us to needing an Expo relief around 2050-2060.
You could mitigate this by moving the bus lines into a grid format that they doesn't funnel in to Skytrain, as well as Express rail/highway bus routes, but you're still looking at something we should keep in mind, and NOT funnel people onto the Expo by putting an HSR terminal on the busiest section of the Expo Line.

This is also why ending an HSR in Surrey is dumb. All it does is funnel more users onto the Expo (also, no one wants to start a Vacation in Vancouver at Surrey.)


Note that the Translink graph is overshooting a bit, as the projection lines include what you need to avoid pass-ups in the worst-case scenarios.

You can avoid the Production-Way branch being a problem by making it a separate line with a 2nd parallel station at Columbia, as I suggested earlier, instead of the 2nd Skybridge for the Scott Road Line.



Also, a bit of iffy fantasy, but if Pac Central gets removed/passed aside for Waterfront, I would want a replica or the actual façade to the station be moved to/built in Surrey for the Surrey HSR Station.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

More like RapidBus / BRT routes are being planned (throughout the region and not just in Surrey) as that way TransLink can do more routes quickly with less money.

In the distant future King George will get some love due to both geography (Scott Road hill is a problem) and ridership (104th isn't as busy - and that's from TransLink).

So what I think we'll see in the next 10 - 20 years is a lot more FTN and RapidBus routes SoF. As Surrey Central is being built out as the downtown for the SoF region I have no doubt it will become the main hub for routes - although I really hope they start to shift away from a hub & spoke layout to something more grid-like.

Other than the Scott Road and a N-S Willingdon connector, I'm not a fan of any of the current Rapidbus proposals.

None of the RapidBuses are anywhere close to 'rapid'. They're still mostly fancy express buses.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'm with you on *not* splitting the Expo Line between Fraser Hwy and King George.

At the moment that aren't many east - west routes in most of the SoF. We need to see some before turning them into FTN routes.

Because we don't have a KGB-104th line. All the routes in Surrey are designed to funnel into Skytrain (as in most of the Suburbs), so they all go North-South.

Langley Skytrain will help things, but only a bit.

Also, there are limited East-West road connections in Surrey in general.
Not 100% sure why, but the Surrey East-West Arterial road grid has a lot of breaks.
We need complete road connections across 92nd and 80th Avenues across Surrey to be built.

Originally Posted by mcj

I would say the best alignment would be similar to the graphic shown on that blog post. Going up parallel to 232 Street in Langley (I can hear the Langley NIMBYs crying already), then connecting with the TCH, across the Fraser River parallel to the Port Mann, following the rail corridor to Pacific Central and/or up and around the DTES to Waterfront. I would prefer Waterfront over Pacific Central for it's connections to local transit and the potential for it to be redeveloped into a world class transit hub, that being said if it is Waterfront we better redevelop the station into something truly world class.

I also strongly believe if we are going to fund this with Canadian taxpayer dollars we should negotiate the right to run local service to eventually act as an express/relief line for our transit system. If we were successful at that we could build a depot for express trains somewhere in Langley and have the following local express stations:

• Langley @ 232st & Fraser Highway (eventually extending Expo Line a couple km to meet this)
• Langley @ Carvolth Exchange
• Surrey @ 104 Ave Guildford (*Also a station for international trains && a connection to a KGB/104 Ave Skytrain)
• Burnaby/Coquitlam @ North Road (perhaps a short tunnel here to connect with Lougheed Station better, a tunnel would also allow through running international trains to maintain higher speeds around the bend in the existing railway ROW in this area)
• Burnaby @ Willingdon (Connecting to the Purple Line Skytrain)
• Vancouver @ Commercial-Broadway (Connecting to Millennium/Expo Line & all of the MEGA TOWERS)
• Vancouver @ Waterfront (*Also a station for international trains)

I would envision all of these stations having a 4 track local/international track layout.

Honestly, the HSR line would be better off if it just followed the Interurban tracks before turning onto the BC Hydro ROW to Surrey Central.

At least the space exists for the alignment, and you're not copying the 555/FVX alignment.

Originally Posted by SpongeG

that would be ideal and I was thinking they need something like that when I was on the Skytrain a couple of weeks ago. It was freaking packed.

Surrey needs more than one way out of Surrey via Skytrain, the current option is always packed. We get on at Gateway and can never get a seat heading out. and now with the extension planned and even more development the already over loaded line is just going to continue to get worse I think.

An option that gets people out of Surrey and across the fraser and connects them to the M line directly would be great. I could see Guildford Mall and Lougheed Mall being connected with a skytrain, moreso than Guildford and Coquitlam Centre. Especially with the broadway extension now it would be really nice and a great way to connect from Surrey to the Canada line to get to the airport.

when they have to run a bus bridge between Surrey and New West, cause of Skytrain issues it's just a mess, and is no way to get people to give up their cars to commute, just not pleasant to use transit. Some kind of secondary crossing is badly needed.

Again, FVX/555.
If it had decent frequency and actually extended across all of Hwy 1 instead of terminating at Lougheed, it would move a lot of people in North Surrey and Langley onto it. 152nd also has basically no users because it's nowhere and connects to nothing.
At least R-1 should be extended there and a bus loop + Park & Ride should be built there (would require some SFH demolition, but still worth it.)


Also, all the buses transfer onto Skytrain instead of using the Pautello. Once that happens, you could extend some of the buses (like R-6/Scott Road) to Sapperton Station or Southlands (if it was built).

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

For Surrey, it seems like two north-south lines (KGB and 120th), one diagonal line (Langley), and one east-west line (104 to Guildford) are all tentatively planned for the distant, distant future. It only makes sense to not branch the Expo line at all, and connect KGB and Guildford as one L-shaped line and Langley and 120th as one 45-degree line. That would turn King George Station into a true hub for the Expo line terminus, two SoF-only lines, and a number of local bus routes.

And while we're in fantasy territory, why not run the Guildford line down the TCH median for awhile to serve Walnut Grove and Fort Langley and even throw a bridge in to connect with the WCE at Port Haney. All of this construction SoF would really establish a comprehensive transit network that doesn't just serve Vancouver, and provide Surrey with transit service worthy of the region's largest city

No. And I live here. That's dumb. a 200 St Skytrain to Langley City and Maple Ridge is far more useful.

Also, White Rock is a major part of the wish-list for Skytrain.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

For a SoF route, consider this: build a new route north/south on 120 St, but have it turn east at 99 Ave where it would eventually connect with King George and take over the Langley line. The current Expo line could then be extended south down KGB. This would eliminate any branching for the Expo line SoF.

As for the Expo relief line, I would say building new east/west lines at 49/41 and Hastings, plus the north/south connection between Willingdon and Brentwood should provide plenty of relief. At a very minimum, these lines will get SoF passengers travelling to YVR, North Van, and UBC off at Metrotown instead of Waterfront, Burrard, and Commercial-Broadway respectively.

If the diagonal connection between Surrey and DT Vancouver does need additional capacity in the distant future and a potential HSR line cannot help address it, I would suggest we would be better off quad tracking the Expo line to allow for express trains that would provide local service in Surrey but only stop at Metrotown, Commercial Broadway, Burrard, and Waterfront once they cross the Fraser.

The issue with quad-tracking (other than cost) is the effects below the station.
A good example is the environment under Lougheed Town Center Station- then add another platform and set of rail tracks. You're talking about effectively a freeway (at least in terms of the effect under the station) at every station.

That might be fine near a few transfer stations, but not a full quad-tracking. Ask Migrant-Coconut about shadowing on Skytrains.


Most 'relief lines' would only work if they're time-competitive with Expo.
Technically, Millennium is an alt-route for Expo, but no one uses it that way.


There is a maybe possibility of building longer stations. A lot of Expo Stations (like New Westminster and Main Street) are flat enough that they could likely trivially be expanded to 120m (about 50% capacity increase.)
The others would need to be rebuilt nearby, then connected to the Expo, then the original station demolished.
Because most of these are center-platform stations, one of the rails, and part of the old station could be reused for the rebuilt station, ensuring service on at least 1 track at all times.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I would point out that doing so would destroy a good chunk of Thornton Park.

Also, that just demolishing Thornton Park would actually be the most economical solution here (and viable, ignoring the part where it's a park) - considering that Vancouver can't sell the airspace the same way as they can on Waterfront considering nearby zoning and industrial uses as well as the viewcones.

Unless they need to expand St. Paul's onto the rail tracks, they wouldn't be able to recoup the cost of building on top of the rail tracks to build a transit hub.

Waterfront may actually be cheaper accounting for redevelopment potential (depending on if you're willing to block the view of the harbor from Gastown, which last time Vancouver City Council wasn't willing to do.)


Unless you move the interregional bus terminal at Pacific Central or the rail depot, there's no space for extra tracks to put an HSR station.

It would be nice to have a covered connection from St. Paul's to Main Street Station, though...


... Skytrain at its absolute peak has a pphpd of 15,000 (2 minute headways). The link from the forum assumes 3 min headways, which isn't the case.
Also, from the report:

Even just the low-end estimate brings us to needing an Expo relief around 2050-2060.
You could mitigate this by moving the bus lines into a grid format that they doesn't funnel in to Skytrain, as well as Express rail/highway bus routes, but you're still looking at something we should keep in mind, and NOT funnel people onto the Expo by putting an HSR terminal on the busiest section of the Expo Line.

This is also why ending an HSR in Surrey is dumb. All it does is funnel more users onto the Expo (also, no one wants to start a Vacation in Vancouver at Surrey.)


Note that the Translink graph is overshooting a bit, as the projection lines include what you need to avoid pass-ups in the worst-case scenarios.

You can avoid the Production-Way branch being a problem by making it a separate line with a 2nd parallel station at Columbia, as I suggested earlier, instead of the 2nd Skybridge for the Scott Road Line. ...

Depends on execution. I'd suggest that having one from above the HandyDart depot to above the east side of the platform would only impact the utility station.

Another big part of why Waterfront Hub doesn't work is that CP keeps storing crude and other hazmats (which AFAIK CN doesn't do with Pacific), something you don't want under a major pedestrian nexus with office towers; if it were just money, then sure, Waterfront would more easily pay for itself in CACs, but there's other things to consider. There's also future port expansion, which IIRC was part of why the Whitecaps stadium didn't go through.

I'm thinking the tracks would be on a viaduct too. Not saying it'll be cheap or easy, but there's definitely a lot of free airspace one floor up.

Didn't even think about that - yeah, if this goes ahead, it shouldn't be that much harder to have a sheltered crosswalk from the terminal across National to the hospital.

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Okay, I'm seeing minimal capacity at 15k, and hypothetical capacity at 25k. And IIRC the Expo's one limiting factor is the Waterfront switch, which can do up to 75 second frequencies, not 120.

Keep in mind how a big part of why Granville-Metrotown is so busy - and why the Millennium isn't relieving the Expo - is the big gap between VCC and City Hall (i.e. you have to transfer and go downtown to reach the Canada Line); we'll see for sure in 2026, but there's a high chance that Commercial-Granville volumes will shrink once there's a better way to get to South Van and Richmond.

The merits of Y-junctions aside, my problem is that Columbia is a two-transfer solution for Surrey-Coquitlam, as well as a detour. A Newton-Guildford-Coquitlam line would be neither.