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  #5721  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2022, 8:54 AM
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BART does elevated really well.

I think that it's a model for what can be done with stations 1-3 miles apart.
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  #5722  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2022, 9:32 AM
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Originally Posted by saybanana View Post
Not a fan of underground. I much prefer elevated, then level grade, then underground. I love the gold line especially as it goes through neighborhoods to see shops around, farmers market, different nights all the way to Azusa. The flyovers of the LA river is cool.

The Expo line is cool especially the elevated sections starting at LA brea station towards Santa Monica. Even the blue line has cool aerial sections.

Outside of LA, I like the elevated sections of elevated on Bart, on nyc boroughs, Seoul, Tokyo, Bangkok, Paris.

I prefer an elevated Vermont rail for the same reason. Most homes and businesses are 2 maybe 3 floors or less making the train views all over.the region.

I hate the subway, nothing to look at except the things people are doing wierd.
I basically agree. Most readers of this thread may be surprised to learn that 79% of the London Underground is actually above ground, or 40% of New York's Subway is actually above ground.
Basically, tunneling is only needed in the most dense neighborhoods.
Is Vermont Avenue that dense?
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  #5723  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2022, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
79% of the London Underground is actually above ground
Tbf, that's false advertising.
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  #5724  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2022, 2:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SFBruin View Post
BART does elevated really well.

I think that it's a model for what can be done with stations 1-3 miles apart.

The Expo Line's elevated sections and stations look pretty nice because they have a light, narrow design. HRT is...heavy and the trains are longer, so it's unlikely that they'll manage to to build something that looks as nice.
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  #5725  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2022, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
The Expo Line's elevated sections and stations look pretty nice because they have a light, narrow design. HRT is...heavy and the trains are longer, so it's unlikely that they'll manage to to build something that looks as nice.
This is a common misconception. The weight on LRT vs HRT is comparable. We're not talking about mainline rail stock (and even those can be much lighter with new FRA rules). "Light rail" was coined in the 1960s at the same time as the first light cola and diet foods. It had nothing to do with train weight, it just referred to the ability of the technology to be built with at-grade sections, shorter trains, and smaller stations. "Heavy rail" appears to have been coined after "light rail" to refer to the older style of subway and metro systems.

-Metro's Breda A650 stock on the HRT Red/Purple Lines is 80,000lbs per single car and 75' long, so 1066 pounds per linear foot or 20,000lbs per axle. Metro's Kinkisharyo P3010 stock for LRT lines is 99,000lbs per articulated car and 89' long, so 1112 pounds per linear foot or 16,500 lbs per axle.

So a train of equivalent length in LRT is actually the same or heavier than HRT, but the axle loading is a little less because there are more axles.

When it comes to designing aerial structures and viaducts, there's no reason an HRT elevated structure needs to be any different from an LRT elevated structure. The only exception (and this is specific to LA, not a general rule) would be the stations, because the HRT trains in LA are longer so the stations would also need to be longer unless you want to restrict train length.
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Last edited by ardecila; Jan 20, 2022 at 5:05 PM.
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  #5726  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2022, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SFBruin View Post
BART does elevated really well.

I think that it's a model for what can be done with stations 1-3 miles apart.
Agreed. Really fun experience and good way to see the surrounding areas.
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  #5727  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2022, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
This is a common misconception. The weight on LRT vs HRT is comparable. We're not talking about mainline rail stock (and even those can be much lighter with new FRA rules). "Light rail" was coined in the 1960s at the same time as the first light cola and diet foods. It had nothing to do with train weight, it just referred to the ability of the technology to be built with at-grade sections, shorter trains, and smaller stations. "Heavy rail" appears to have been coined after "light rail" to refer to the older style of subway and metro systems.

-Metro's Breda A650 stock on the HRT Red/Purple Lines is 80,000lbs per single car and 75' long, so 1066 pounds per linear foot or 20,000lbs per axle. Metro's Kinkisharyo P3010 stock for LRT lines is 99,000lbs per articulated car and 89' long, so 1112 pounds per linear foot or 16,500 lbs per axle.

So a train of equivalent length in LRT is actually the same or heavier than HRT, but the axle loading is a little less because there are more axles.

When it comes to designing aerial structures and viaducts, there's no reason an HRT elevated structure needs to be any different from an LRT elevated structure. The only exception (and this is specific to LA, not a general rule) would be the stations, because the HRT trains in LA are longer so the stations would also need to be longer unless you want to restrict train length.
They are more similar than most HRT/LRT comparisons because the Los Angeles LRT system is not low-platform (like newer systems in Seattle, Phoenix, etc). However, the Breda HRT subway cars are 10 feet wide whereas the LRVs are about 8.5 feet wide, which makes a huge difference in the potential load from standing passengers.
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  #5728  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 3:40 PM
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September 21st, 2021 11:54am

There was so much foolishness happening on the trains the last 3 times I rode it, drug use out in the open, people yelling at bystanders... I just can't even. These people saw me standing right next to them and didnt care and proceeded to light and smoke whatever they had in that tinfoil. This is why I now support the development of fully automated train systems for Los Angeles so that we can demand the "driver" staff position be shifted to a conductor position that roams around the train, validates fares and ensures safety. Ironically the green line was built to be a grade separated automated “light rail” but the unions killed this because they wanted those jobs. No more driver sitting in a cockpit ignoring the riffraff that's happening behind them. I just can't even anymore with the trains... and I LOVE trains. I've really tried and since the 2020 shutdowns it has been ridiculous.

If you've followed my post for the last 15 years, I've supported and been advocating for the subway to expand and for light rail to increase. I would attend metro rail meetings and have been at every rail grand opening in LA since the 2009 Eastside gold line opening. I used to ride the red line every day for work from Hollywood to Downtown LA while having a car sitting at home... my tune has shifted. From now on, the Sepulveda Pass needs to be a fully automated train like Vancouver Skytrain technology (Expo & Millennium lines, not that new Canada line sh*!), and hopefully we get more lines with same technology that expand. Luckily, both P3 proposals for Sepulveda have automated options in their proposals, it would be up to metro to say yes to automation. The gateway cities Eco Rapid Transit were advocating for a few decades to have the West Santa Ana Branch be an elevated Maglev train, then Metro went with "light rail." This could easily be actual "light transit" Elevated Magnetic propelled trains like the Vancouver skytrain as well.

Finish extending the "light" and heavy rail lines we got to completion, then use fully automated tech on brand new lines and open up more battery electric streetcars. This plan would spur development and "hopefully" create a safer atmosphere





Automated Driverless Linear Induction Motor propelled trains for Los Angeles....

"ADLIM for LA!"

Dang... I just coined that. Might need to make a movement around it. haha.

Last edited by hughfb3; Jan 22, 2022 at 5:33 PM.
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  #5729  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 4:35 PM
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Automation need not be tied to unconventional gadgetbahn propulsion systems or light metro train consists. A full lenghth heavy rail metro/subway can be fully automated. The obstacles are political not technological.
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  #5730  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Automation need not be tied to unconventional gadgetbahn propulsion systems or light metro train consists. A full lenghth heavy rail metro/subway can be fully automated. The obstacles are political not technological.
Yeah the green line Was originally built to be automated… but politics

The gadgetbahn system does get rid of hundreds of mechanical moving parts in engines and drivetrain. LIM’s have no “engine” and simply glide along bringing down maintenance costs significantly, money which could be funneled into security and expansion. Some of the reasons they haven’t caught on is because it takes away maintenance jobs and the increased electricity usage costs, which can now be offset with the ever dropping prices in solar and other renewable sources. JFK air train uses this propulsion and operates almost 24/7 never with a breakdown on the system. Same with Vancouver Skytrain and Osaka Subway line 7. Another benefit is the smaller tunnels available with LIM trains. They have no engine so the trains are much smaller and can significantly reduce tunnel diameters, also lowering costs.

And yes, the obstacles are absolutely political. Too many lost jobs from drivers to maintenance and less capital to launder

Last edited by hughfb3; Jan 22, 2022 at 11:25 PM.
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  #5731  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by hughfb3 View Post
September 21st, 2021 11:54am

There was so much foolishness happening on the trains the last 3 times I rode it, drug use out in the open, people yelling at bystanders... I just can't even. These people saw me standing right next to them and didnt care and proceeded to light and smoke whatever they had in that tinfoil. This is why I now support the development of fully automated train systems for Los Angeles so that we can demand the "driver" staff position be shifted to a conductor position that roams around the train, validates fares and ensures safety. Ironically the green line was built to be a grade separated automated “light rail” but the unions killed this because they wanted those jobs. No more driver sitting in a cockpit ignoring the riffraff that's happening behind them. I just can't even anymore with the trains... and I LOVE trains. I've really tried and since the 2020 shutdowns it has been ridiculous.

If you've followed my post for the last 15 years, I've supported and been advocating for the subway to expand and for light rail to increase. I would attend metro rail meetings and have been at every rail grand opening in LA since the 2009 Eastside gold line opening. I used to ride the red line every day for work from Hollywood to Downtown LA while having a car sitting at home... my tune has shifted. From now on, the Sepulveda Pass needs to be a fully automated train like Vancouver Skytrain technology (Expo & Millennium lines, not that new Canada line sh*!), and hopefully we get more lines with same technology that expand. Luckily, both P3 proposals for Sepulveda have automated options in their proposals, it would be up to metro to say yes to automation. The gateway cities Eco Rapid Transit were advocating for a few decades to have the West Santa Ana Branch be an elevated Maglev train, then Metro went with "light rail." This could easily be actual "light transit" Elevated Magnetic propelled trains like the Vancouver skytrain as well.

Finish extending the "light" and heavy rail lines we got to completion, then use fully automated tech on brand new lines and open up more battery electric streetcars. This plan would spur development and "hopefully" create a safer atmosphere





Automated Driverless Linear Induction Motor propelled trains for Los Angeles....

"ADLIM for LA!"

Dang... I just coined that. Might need to make a movement around it. haha.
If inappropriate behaviour is as common as you suggest, then there needs to be an investment in transit security officers who randomly roam the trains and stations in pairs.
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  #5732  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 6:21 PM
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Yeah I would think you would need armed and trained security officers or police patrol rather than moving train operators into the train cabins. Operators are commonly small women or large obese men and won’t be able to handle certain situations, especially on their own. Even trained security guards at high end stores are taught to not interfere with shoplifting so it’d require a much higher level of training if you really wanted to enforce crime on trains. Of course we also have the chicken or the egg scenario as well. If ridership were higher and trains were crowded there would be likely be less crime. However if there is high crime that could decrease ridership and result in a negative feedback cycle.
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  #5733  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 6:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughfb3 View Post
September 21st, 2021 11:54am

There was so much foolishness happening on the trains the last 3 times I rode it, drug use out in the open, people yelling at bystanders... I just can't even. These people saw me standing right next to them and didnt care and proceeded to light and smoke whatever they had in that tinfoil. This is why I now support the development of fully automated train systems for Los Angeles so that we can demand the "driver" staff position be shifted to a conductor position that roams around the train, validates fares and ensures safety. Ironically the green line was built to be a grade separated automated “light rail” but the unions killed this because they wanted those jobs. No more driver sitting in a cockpit ignoring the riffraff that's happening behind them. I just can't even anymore with the trains... and I LOVE trains. I've really tried and since the 2020 shutdowns it has been ridiculous.

If you've followed my post for the last 15 years, I've supported and been advocating for the subway to expand and for light rail to increase. I would attend metro rail meetings and have been at every rail grand opening in LA since the 2009 Eastside gold line opening. I used to ride the red line every day for work from Hollywood to Downtown LA while having a car sitting at home... my tune has shifted. From now on, the Sepulveda Pass needs to be a fully automated train like Vancouver Skytrain technology (Expo & Millennium lines, not that new Canada line sh*!), and hopefully we get more lines with same technology that expand. Luckily, both P3 proposals for Sepulveda have automated options in their proposals, it would be up to metro to say yes to automation. The gateway cities Eco Rapid Transit were advocating for a few decades to have the West Santa Ana Branch be an elevated Maglev train, then Metro went with "light rail." This could easily be actual "light transit" Elevated Magnetic propelled trains like the Vancouver skytrain as well.

Finish extending the "light" and heavy rail lines we got to completion, then use fully automated tech on brand new lines and open up more battery electric streetcars. This plan would spur development and "hopefully" create a safer atmosphere


Automated Driverless Linear Induction Motor propelled trains for Los Angeles....

"ADLIM for LA!"

Dang... I just coined that. Might need to make a movement around it. haha.
That sounds good except there's nothing wrong with the Canada line. It's been just as successful as the others. It doesn't have a high of a capacity because of the chosen platform lengths but there's no reason an otherwise identical line couldn't have longer platforms just as the Expo and Millennium lines could have had shorter platforms. But the Canada line doesn't really need as much capacity as the others because it isn't as long and doesn't serve as many stations.
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  #5734  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by saybanana View Post
Not a fan of underground. I much prefer elevated, then level grade, then underground. I love the gold line especially as it goes through neighborhoods to see shops around, farmers market, different nights all the way to Azusa. The flyovers of the LA river is cool.

The Expo line is cool especially the elevated sections starting at LA brea station towards Santa Monica. Even the blue line has cool aerial sections.

Outside of LA, I like the elevated sections of elevated on Bart, on nyc boroughs, Seoul, Tokyo, Bangkok, Paris.

I prefer an elevated Vermont rail for the same reason. Most homes and businesses are 2 maybe 3 floors or less making the train views all over.the region.

I hate the subway, nothing to look at except the things people are doing wierd.
Any modern state of the art city for the most part should have underground. It’s faster, usually more convenient and preserved the clean look of the area the lines are going through. I think Chicago’s EL ruins the downtown - sure the view is nice from the train but downtown streets shouldn’t mean walking under squeaky train lines.

If they could build this as a HRT Subway it would be a total game changer to have HRT from SFV to Wiltshire all the way down to the Harbor would be amazing.
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  #5735  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughfb3 View Post
September 21st, 2021 11:54am





Automated Driverless Linear Induction Motor propelled trains for Los Angeles....

"ADLIM for LA!"

Dang... I just coined that. Might need to make a movement around it. haha.
Yikes. People smoking meth right out in the open like that….
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  #5736  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineDrive View Post
Any modern state of the art city for the most part should have underground. It’s faster, usually more convenient and preserved the clean look of the area the lines are going through. I think Chicago’s EL ruins the downtown - sure the view is nice from the train but downtown streets shouldn’t mean walking under squeaky train lines.

If they could build this as a HRT Subway it would be a total game changer to have HRT from SFV to Wiltshire all the way down to the Harbor would be amazing.
I also think trenches/open cuts present many of the same advantages in terms of sound mitigation and visual aesthetics including the psychological barriers of aerials and viaducts but with the benefit of cheaper construction than tunneling. I wish we saw more of it, including at grade light rail running with UNDERPASSES like you see in Europe not these absurd roller coaster rides where the corridor ramps over every freaking arterial at 5+% grades like cough couch Expo cough cough and so many other American light rail systems of the past 30 years.
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  #5737  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2022, 11:29 PM
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Decreasing tunnel diameter and reducing subway construction costs is another factor to consider with “Gadgetbahn” (LIM) subway trains

https://www.metro-magazine.com/10009...gies-cut-costs

Quote:
It is possible to build a smaller, low profile tunnel that is faster to construct and substantially less expensive than a standard size subway. The outside diameter of the low profile tube is 17.5 feet compared to 24 feet for a standard tunnel (those are averages, which vary depending on installation).



https://www.researchgate.net/publica...n_Developments

Quote:
Generally, the bore of tunnels can be reduced by as much as 50% in a sectional area. With linear motors, which are non-adhesion driven


“ADLIM for LA!!!”
Automated Driverless Linear Induction Motor trains for Los Angeles

Go Go Gadgetbahn!!!!

Last edited by hughfb3; Jan 23, 2022 at 12:27 AM.
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  #5738  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 1:52 AM
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According to this article in Curbed:

*Metro’s ridership never dipped below 50 percent of pre-COVID ridership

*Buses eventually recovered to within 10 to 15 percent of pre-pandemic numbers

*Metro inadvertently conducted "what may be the biggest free-transit experiment in U.S. history" for 22 months, due to COVID measures

*Transit ridership in L.A. didn’t drop as much as other US transit systems' ridership did due to COVID: "Just comparing ridership numbers across the nation, Metro’s ridership is nearing 80 percent of pre-COVID levels, and that’s better than any other nationwide agency" (for example, New York’s MTA has yet to surpass 60 percent of its pre-pandemic ridership).
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  #5739  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 1:58 AM
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If we're being honest a tunnel for a third rail powered train can be close enough in size to a LIM tunnel to make little difference in cost.
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  #5740  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2022, 2:34 AM
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If we're being honest a tunnel for a third rail powered train can be close enough in size to a LIM tunnel to make little difference in cost.
You may be correct in that and I would love to see some statistics and for LA to consider it, but that is not the case for us now, unless we have a major reconstruction on all of our current station platform heights and widths to fit the rolling stock you are speaking of

10.3ft height and 8.16ft width Osaka LIM train car vs 12ft height and 10 ft width Los Angeles Breda Red line subway stock.

That's a 2 foot difference in height and almost 2ft in width. That over miles and miles underground racks up



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osak...bway_70_series
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_A650
https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/O...etro_70_series

Most of the added height and bulk of LA's trains comes from on board rotary motors that operate below peoples feet under the floor that then must have space to turn the wheels of the train forward. With a LIM, there is no motor turning wheels below peoples feet and no moving parts below peoples feet. Just a thin Magnet under the train to propel the car forward resulting in a slim, agile, less bulky train car with lower platform heights, lower costs... oh and they are much quieter...



The added height and bulk of LA's trains is not for increased passenger capacity or comfort either. To the left is a line that carries a daily passenger load of 933,621 (2016) vs our 133,413 (2019 Red line).

*I adjusted the post to include the relevant measurments* I'm providing receipts and facts in my posts but do your own research. It's not some new fangled unproven unworkable gimmicky thing. Our political leaders need encouragement that if they choose something "new" [for us] that they won't be roasted by the public. If it can save a few billion dollars of my taxpayer money on tunnels and give us less bulky elevated structures, I'm all about it

“ADLIM for LA!!!”
Automated Driverless Linear Induction Motor trains for Los Angeles

Last edited by hughfb3; Jan 23, 2022 at 4:09 AM.
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