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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:08 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I guess the critical question then is why did this class of people stay within the city (or "city" if you will) in NYC, where they decamped to the suburbs pretty much everywhere else in the country?
SI Italians are mostly descended from post-WW2 immigration from Sicily/Calabria. They aren't really the same as Italian Americans in, say, South Jersey (via South Philly).

But many did leave. Central Jersey, NE PA, the Carolinas, and Florida were popular destinations. Those who could afford it, or who have stronger ties to the city, stayed. I suspect SI South Shore will still be overwhelmingly ethnic white, and culturally conservative a generation from now.
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chisouthside View Post
anecdotal for sure but a former co-worker who was born in Ukraine and i guess grew up around Brighton Beach, when i asked her why her parents moved to SI she said her parents wanted something more suburban but still closeish to all the ethnic amenities they were used to in the city.
Right, this too. SI is cheaper than Brooklyn, but still close.

Italian Americans may have (mostly) left Brooklyn, but they're still present.

Maybe 10 years ago, they built a large cultural center in Bath Beach, in a neighborhood that is now heavily Chinese & Central American:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6049...7i16384!8i8192

Also, the really prosperous Italian Americans stayed, in a small enclave called Dyker Heights. The best salumerias, bakeries and the like are still in Brooklyn, even if the customer base is heavily SI & NJ.
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:18 PM
edale edale is offline
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
I've wondered this myself, but more along the lines of "What is the most ideologically diverse city in the US?"

Every time I try to look up statistics, it's always framed under the 2 status-quo parties, namely Republicans and Democrats. NYC being the center of capitalism in the US, I would imagine it would be dominated by those two parties.

I've never been a Republican or Democrat, I've only ever been registered in the Peace and Freedom Party and the Green Party. I'd like to know what cities in the US are full of Communists, Socialists, Fascists, far right-wingers, far left-wingers, etc. I can't even find percentages for Green Party members in cities.
never heard of this party

To get to your question, though, I imagine somewhere in the PNW would have the widest variety of ideological view points represented. You have the extreme left socialists, communists, radical environmentalists well represented in a city like Portland, and some of the most extreme right militia types not too far outside the city. Portlandia existing next to Proud Boy country. The extremes don't seem to be as well represented in other parts of the country.
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:21 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
There wasn't really a need to, I guess. The housing stock in southern SI looks like a generic suburb on Long Island or north Jersey. There aren't a lot of tacky exurban McMansion developments that they could've fled to in the NY area, so that's about as suburban as it gets for a family on a middle class income.
I guess what I was getting at is the typical reason that these sort of people fled for the suburbs was concerns about too many black/brown people in the local public schools. I guess either NYC's bussing program in the mid/late 20th century wasn't that big in terms of an impact, or they all attended Catholic schools already.
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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:23 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I guess what I was getting at is the typical reason that these sort of people fled for the suburbs was concerns about too many black/brown people in the local public schools. I guess either NYC's bussing program in the mid/late 20th century wasn't that big in terms of an impact, or they all attended Catholic schools already.
There are no large populations of black/brown residents anywhere around the South Shore of SI. The local public schools are overwhelmingly white.

North Shore of SI is very diverse, but U.S. cities haven't done race-based bussing in decades, and North Shore wasn't diverse back then anyways. Even there, the black population isn't large, it's mostly recent Hispanic immigrants.
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  #26  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
There are no large populations of black/brown residents anywhere around the South Shore of SI. The local public schools are overwhelmingly white.
Yeah, I get that. But bussing in some cities effectively did away with neighborhood zoned schools entirely, meaning it was entirely possible in a different world NYC Public Schools would have bussed north shore kids into the south shore.
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  #27  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:29 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Yeah, I get that. But bussing in some cities effectively did away with neighborhood zoned schools entirely, meaning it was entirely possible in a different world NYC Public Schools would have bussed north shore kids into the south shore.
Yes, possibly, but the North Shore wasn't particularly diverse until the 1990's, which postdates the era of bus wars/integration.

Obviously there are huge black populations in NYC, but nowhere near South Shore. Kids in Brownsville, Brooklyn are highly unlikely to be considering schools this far from home.
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:30 PM
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never heard of this party
Really? They've been on the California ballot for President since at least 1988 (when I first started voting), except maybe one Presidential election year. But they haven't been on the ballot in every state, so maybe that's why you've never heard of it? The system is really rigged against other parties aside from Dem/Repub.
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  #29  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:32 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I guess what I was getting at is the typical reason that these sort of people fled for the suburbs was concerns about too many black/brown people in the local public schools. I guess either NYC's bussing program in the mid/late 20th century wasn't that big in terms of an impact, or they all attended Catholic schools already.
I don't think NYC ever had a busing program. The NYC DoE also doesn't own buses like other large districts do.
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  #30  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:33 PM
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There were extensive busing programs in 1970's-era NYC. But that's long-gone.
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:40 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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I'm not able to find any evidence that NYC ever had a busing program.
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 8:56 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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I appreciate that NYC is still capable of electing Republicans, although I'm not sure we'll see another Republican mayor. Still, I think having that competitive political environment brings out better candidates and ultimately yields better policies.

Part of the challenge is that big city Republicans, however liberal they are, still share the same party affiliation as Trump, Cruz, DeSantis, MTG, etc. They're guilty by association even though their policies differ from what we see at the national level and are often just to the right of their Democratic opponents (depending how liberal they are). Any voter that wants to have a say in a big city, one-party town (like Philly for example) has to be registered as a Democrat, which makes it even harder for the local GOP to build up a functioning party.

Some cities do use non-partisan elections and I'd love to see more of that at the local level.
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 9:07 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
I appreciate that NYC is still capable of electing Republicans, although I'm not sure we'll see another Republican mayor. Still, I think having that competitive political environment brings out better candidates and ultimately yields better policies.

Part of the challenge is that big city Republicans, however liberal they are, still share the same party affiliation as Trump, Cruz, DeSantis, MTG, etc. They're guilty by association even though their policies differ from what we see at the national level.

Some cities do use non-partisan elections and I'd love to see more of that at the local level.
I think NYC is one of the few cities to still have partisan elections at the mayoral level, but it is pretty crazy how quickly Republican candidates became unelectable in the city (and state for that matter). I can't think of any good reason for that other than the national GOP branding itself as the party of old white men that like to flirt with fascism. There is hardly anything progressive about Eric Adams, so it's not like the voter rolls are full of arugula eating, Subaru driving leftists lol.
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2022, 11:19 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I'm not able to find any evidence that NYC ever had a busing program.
The 1970's was an era of bus wars. There were horrible conflicts, all over NYC, starting with the Brownsville teacher's strike, which was basically a battle over school control by Jewish teachers vs. AA students/parents.

https://www.nytimes.com/1964/03/12/a...on-school.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/10/31/a...pils-miss.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/11/05/a...incumbent.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1974/07/21/a...-students.html

Also, this stuff happened in basically every American city with a sizable AA population.

NYC still does soft "busing" now, BTW. They actively seek to maintain racial balances, by shifting school boundaries.
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2022, 12:45 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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NYC whites are probably something like 60-40 D. Outside of Manhattan and trendy Brooklyn, the vast majority are Orthodox Jewish, Russian or Italian American - very conservative demographics. And you see some astounding R numbers in some of these areas where they vote like whites in Appalachia
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2022, 2:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
To get to your question, though, I imagine somewhere in the PNW would have the widest variety of ideological view points represented. You have the extreme left socialists, communists, radical environmentalists well represented in a city like Portland, and some of the most extreme right militia types not too far outside the city. Portlandia existing next to Proud Boy country. The extremes don't seem to be as well represented in other parts of the country.
You beat me to it--Portland. The anarchists and commies are there, and although generally the Nazis don't technically live in Portland city proper, they show up in different parts of the city so often that their presence is felt strongly.
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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2022, 2:44 AM
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So there you go? Being that NYC is full of corporate shills, it is NOT the most geopolitically diverse city in the US.

Even Oakland gave birth to the Black Panthers.
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2022, 3:10 AM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Looking at the outer-borough neighborhoods that are white and not right-wing, it's basically the following:

Bronx: Riverdale is pretty left-leaning, which isn't surprising, as it's a professional area. Woodlawn (old Irish enclave) is basically 50/50, as is City Island. Morris Park is only a bit Trumpy, but it's only around 60% white these days, so the Italians there must be pretty right wing.

Brooklyn: White liberal areas are mostly confined to the band running from Greenpoint down to Windsor Terrace (notably broken up by the big Hasidic community in South Williamsburg), but Bay Ridge stands out as a left-of-center white neighborhood isolated in South Brooklyn.

Queens: Chunks of Astoria and Steinway are still mostly white and solidly progressive. The same can be said for some pockets of Forest Hills, but there's also modestly Trumpy areas, and it's like 25%-30% Asian now, suggesting the Jewish population is trending right pretty rapidly. Aside from that...not much.

Staten Island: Absolutely nothing.
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2022, 3:12 AM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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ny yankees
last mlb team to integrate
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2022, 10:58 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
ny yankees
last mlb team to integrate
Boston Red Sox were last team to integrate, in 1959. Detroit Tigers beat them by a few months.
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