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View Poll Results: In your opinion, where is the best location for the new arena in Calgary. State why!
West Village 42 53.16%
Stampede Grounds/Victoria Park 36 45.57%
Other (please state where) 1 1.27%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bt04ku View Post
It's because the 'Dome was built before the "next gen" arena came to be. A few years made a whole lot of difference and it is the reason that it had to have extensive renovations a mere 12 years after being built to put in more suites. As silly as it sounds, but the Dome effectively because obsolete the same time the likes of Maple Leaf Gardens and the Montreal Forum did (but in being the youngest 'last gen' it is the best of the obsolete I guess). A 35 year best before date just represents an unlucky build time.

I don't know who's talking about 20 year lifespans. That's usually the rough time for lease agreements to be worked out between public owner and private operator and for many naming rights deals, but those don't really speak to the longevity of the arena, just that they're the timeframes that tend to work out best for all sides. For example the United Center turns 20 this year and has just re-upped it's naming rights for another 20 so somebody plans for that building to be going for 40 years. The Bell Centre will be 20 soon but recently had a 20 year naming rights deal with Bell etc.
Very interesting, thank you for sharing that. I must admit, I don't know many of the nuances of arena design, so it was great to read your post.
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  #82  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 7:35 PM
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What makes arena's "next gen"? More boxes?
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  #83  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 1:01 PM
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Re: West Village. Canadian Creosote wasn't the only contaminating business in the area




glenbow.org

Both of these were just east of the Pumphouse theatre. Address is 9th Avenue, which I'm assuming Pumphouse Road was named before 9th went all loopy towards Crowchild.
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  #84  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 1:58 AM
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Speaking of which:


glenbow.org
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  #85  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 3:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
What makes arena's "next gen"? More boxes?
Next gen would be the term I used because I couldn't think of another one, but in a word, usually. More may not be necessary, but they would certainly be better suites.

It all comes down to revenue maximizing/optimizing and boxes play the largest part in that. Boxes are just tools to make a lot of money from every aspect of the business. Concourses are laid out differently including multiple concourses with concessions catered towards each level of seating i.e. the club seats would have access to the sushi bar and the other non-traditional 'whoa, I never thought I'd see that at a hockey game' high-priced fare while the (very) upper concourse would be your typical beer, hot dog and nachos stuff. So a better ability to take as many corporate partners for as much money as possible, high priced concessions with a lot of options in a multiple concourse system that allows for the quickest turnaround of patrons to increase the potential number of times they can buy things.

It goes away from the past 'concrete shoebox' type designs that were just meant to get as many people in seats as possible and everything else was an afterthought (the old favorites like the Forum and MLG but even Rexall). Get people in, sit them down, then try to stuff in some beer kegs and popcorn machines.

The Saddledome has a pretty crowded main concourse, a bland concrete one at that, at either end it has those mini concourses that have no toilets which means the entire lower and second bowls will all converge on the same area pretty much every intermission. People waiting in line for beer is one thing, but people waiting in line for the bathroom means they aren't buying something as it can take a long time to get from Row 21 in Section 205 to the bathroom and back without missing any game time. The Press Level is accessed by walking up the through the second bowl stairs (and leaving down through the same stairs with everybody else in those 200 seats) with only a couple pathetic little concessions to service everybody. Not great if you want to do anything other than simply watch the game (which you can do at home with a better view). The upper suites have restaurants and toilets that are accessible by the 'plebs' from the PL and Upper Bowl which makes them considerably less desirable than the very exclusive lower bowl suites.

Compare that to one of the newest arenas like Consol Energy Center. You enter into a big, well lit area that definitely isn't just bare concrete with escalators and elevators to take you to your area so all of a sudden the nosebleeds aren't a workout anymore. They have their main concourse with all the fancy stuff for the lower bowl and 'club suites'. The Upper Concourse which services the second bowl warps around the entire level and you can access them immediately after entering the arena to spread everybody out as soon as possible. Toilets at every level so its not an odyssey just to relieve yourself as well as retail at every level so everybody doesn't need to go to the same crowded Fan-Attic equivalent to buy a hat or jersey. The second level suites are separated and have their own services and access which adds a nice bit of class and exclusivity (it also allows the arena to be tiered differently to maximize the number of suites without ruining the second level balcony sightlines, a very valuable ticket. Ideally none of these groups will need to cross paths after entering the doors of the arena. Just a much better experience for everyone involved, and happier people like to buy things. But most importantly, you can charge more for absolutely everything because it's new.
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  #86  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2014, 8:28 PM
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Separate concourses are the biggest difference between an 'old' arena and a "new gen" arena, and it all changed in the mid 1990s.

I'll give you another example of a "new gen" arena that I've been to to illustrate the differences. Tampa Bay Times Forum in Tampa, Florida dates to 1996, and it's a hell of a lot more like the Consol Energy Center in Pittsburgh (2010) than the Saddledome (1983).



The Saddledome has three bowls of seating but really only has two levels: the event level and the concourse level. The event level is the level of the ice surface, and it houses the dressing rooms, fitness rooms, control rooms, kitchens and other back-of-house operations that as a typical spectator you would never see. (These are the areas that were damaged in the flood in June.) The lower bowl seating spans the height between the event level and concourse level and conceals the event level rooms. (In the Saddledome this seating structure is not permanent; it's an aluminum structure that is designed to be disassembled. This is part of the reason why the Saddledome was able to be repaired so quickly following the flood last June: the entire lower bowl seating areas were disassembled and cleaned, and the attached seats were thrown out.)

The second bowl of seating is installed at the concourse level and is stepped above. This structure is permanent. Above it lies the "press level": when the Saddledome was built these areas only housed press boxes and suites but seating was installed in the mid-'80s to bring the original building's capacity of about 16,600 to over 20,000. The press level is really just an extension of the second bowl seating to fill in the previous gaps at the apexes of the roof.

Access to almost every single seat the Saddledome is from the concourse level. The lower bowl seats are accessed by entering the arena at the concourse level and walking down to the seats. The second bowl seats are accessed by entering the concourse level and walking up stairs to the seats. The press level may be access from the same way as the second bowl seats or there are open stairwells constructed in the middle of the concourse level to take you up that high without having to walk past thirty rows of seats.

The concourse itself is the only public area of the arena. Concessions and washrooms are here. Out of the 19,289 patrons at a Flames game almost all of them filter through the concourse to enter the building, buy food, go pee and exit the building. If you've ever been to a Flames game you know what the congestion is like.



By contrast the Tampa Bay Times Forum has three concourse levels, and two sets of public entrances. If you are seated in the lower bowl or the upper bowl you enter the arena through one set of entrances (there are several), and to access the suites in between the upper and lower bowls you enter another set of entrances (there are few). These two streams of customers, the ones sitting in a regular old seat and the ones in the suites, never, ever interact with each other once they've entered the building.

The lower bowl has its own concourse. To reach the upper bowl concourse you take escalators or elevators from the lower bowl concourse up. Once an upper bowl patron is on the upper bowl concourse he or she does not have to go to the lower concourse for any reason at all except to exit the building after the game. There are concessions and washrooms on the upper bowl concourse. The second level concourse for the suites has its own washrooms and concessions and is not publicly accessible from either the upper or lower concourses.

The footprint of the Tampa Bay Times Forum isn't really all that much greater than the Saddledome but the public areas are gargantuan by comparison. At bt04ku pointed out this increases the throughput of customers. Washrooms are plentiful so the customers spend less time waiting for them. Concessions stands are plentiful so the customer doesn't have to wait long for their food. The whole idea behind having the separate concourses is that it makes buying food and merchandise much, much, much quicker than it is in an 'old' arena like the Saddledome.

This is what the Flames are chasing. They want to maximize revenue and to accomplish that they need to sell more food and more merchandise than they do now; after all they already sell out the Saddledome. The problem the Flames have with the Saddledome is not related to the viewing experience or the ice conditions--things you would notice from the seats--it's with everything else. Customer throughput is (comparatively) poor, so concessions and merchandise sales are (comparatively) poor, and the Flames can't stand to miss out on that potential revenue anymore.
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  #87  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2014, 9:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
Separate concourses are the biggest difference between an 'old' arena and a "new gen" arena, and it all changed in the mid 1990s.

I'll give you another example of a "new gen" arena that I've been to to illustrate the differences. Tampa Bay Times Forum in Tampa, Florida dates to 1996, and it's a hell of a lot more like the Consol Energy Center in Pittsburgh (2010) than the Saddledome (1983).



The Saddledome has three bowls of seating but really only has two levels: the event level and the concourse level. The event level is the level of the ice surface, and it houses the dressing rooms, fitness rooms, control rooms, kitchens and other back-of-house operations that as a typical spectator you would never see. (These are the areas that were damaged in the flood in June.) The lower bowl seating spans the height between the event level and concourse level and conceals the event level rooms. (In the Saddledome this seating structure is not permanent; it's an aluminum structure that is designed to be disassembled. This is part of the reason why the Saddledome was able to be repaired so quickly following the flood last June: the entire lower bowl seating areas were disassembled and cleaned, and the attached seats were thrown out.)

The second bowl of seating is installed at the concourse level and is stepped above. This structure is permanent. Above it lies the "press level": when the Saddledome was built these areas only housed press boxes and suites but seating was installed in the mid-'80s to bring the original building's capacity of about 16,600 to over 20,000. The press level is really just an extension of the second bowl seating to fill in the previous gaps at the apexes of the roof.

Access to almost every single seat the Saddledome is from the concourse level. The lower bowl seats are accessed by entering the arena at the concourse level and walking down to the seats. The second bowl seats are accessed by entering the concourse level and walking up stairs to the seats. The press level may be access from the same way as the second bowl seats or there are open stairwells constructed in the middle of the concourse level to take you up that high without having to walk past thirty rows of seats.

The concourse itself is the only public area of the arena. Concessions and washrooms are here. Out of the 19,289 patrons at a Flames game almost all of them filter through the concourse to enter the building, buy food, go pee and exit the building. If you've ever been to a Flames game you know what the congestion is like.



By contrast the Tampa Bay Times Forum has three concourse levels, and two sets of public entrances. If you are seated in the lower bowl or the upper bowl you enter the arena through one set of entrances (there are several), and to access the suites in between the upper and lower bowls you enter another set of entrances (there are few). These two streams of customers, the ones sitting in a regular old seat and the ones in the suites, never, ever interact with each other once they've entered the building.

The lower bowl has its own concourse. To reach the upper bowl concourse you take escalators or elevators from the lower bowl concourse up. Once an upper bowl patron is on the upper bowl concourse he or she does not have to go to the lower concourse for any reason at all except to exit the building after the game. There are concessions and washrooms on the upper bowl concourse. The second level concourse for the suites has its own washrooms and concessions and is not publicly accessible from either the upper or lower concourses.

The footprint of the Tampa Bay Times Forum isn't really all that much greater than the Saddledome but the public areas are gargantuan by comparison. At bt04ku pointed out this increases the throughput of customers. Washrooms are plentiful so the customers spend less time waiting for them. Concessions stands are plentiful so the customer doesn't have to wait long for their food. The whole idea behind having the separate concourses is that it makes buying food and merchandise much, much, much quicker than it is in an 'old' arena like the Saddledome.

This is what the Flames are chasing. They want to maximize revenue and to accomplish that they need to sell more food and more merchandise than they do now; after all they already sell out the Saddledome. The problem the Flames have with the Saddledome is not related to the viewing experience or the ice conditions--things you would notice from the seats--it's with everything else. Customer throughput is (comparatively) poor, so concessions and merchandise sales are (comparatively) poor, and the Flames can't stand to miss out on that potential revenue anymore.
Don't want contact between those suite dwellers and the regular folk now would we

The rest (throughput, merchandising, etc.) I get, the segregation though is just elitist
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  #88  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2014, 10:04 PM
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Imagine the havoc if oil company execs mingled with the proles!


I've watched a Flames game from a suite and I'll admit... it's pretty awesome to not have to deal with the rest of the crowd.
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