HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > General Development


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #19681  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 3:08 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyhigh07 View Post
Given the market right now, I think it’s great. Traditional commercial high rises are going to take awhile to come back particularly in Philly and will likely never be how it once was for better or worse. The design has been reappropriated for lab space and we’ll likely see more developments like this in the future.
It's not the purpose or the height that bothers me, it's the design. I don't get why people are saying that this is a good example of an overbuild. It's completely out of character with the existing buildings and completely overshadows them.
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
     
     
  #19682  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 3:16 PM
TonyTone's Avatar
TonyTone TonyTone is offline
Tony V / ValuezTV
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Philly Metro DE-PA-NJ
Posts: 1,435
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyhigh07 View Post
Given the market right now, I think it’s great. Traditional commercial high rises are going to take awhile to come back particularly in Philly and will likely never be how it once was for better or worse. The design has been reappropriated for lab space and we’ll likely see more developments like this in the future.

Huh? There are lots of brownstones here. Ever been to Rittenhouse? Lol
Oh no I didn't even want the sky rise to be Commerical, make the sky rise Commercial and mixed ad also have that lower portion as the offices and labs. brings a good mix of commercial, residential, labs and offices that's a 4 in 1 great for the area and great for the people.

I need to look at what brownstones are again everything starts to blend together after a while.
__________________
Promoting Cities since 1998! | ValuezTv | Philadelphia Photo Thread | Wilmington Photo Thread | ValuezTv IG | ValuezTv X
     
     
  #19683  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 3:17 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
It's not the purpose or the height that bothers me, it's the design. I don't get why people are saying that this is a good example of an overbuild. It's completely out of character with the existing buildings and completely overshadows them.
This simply comes down to different taste in architecture. Personally, with an overbuild I prefer a clean break from the existing structure. I think this is very well done.

I don't want to try to match a 21st century build with prewar masonry. You're fortunate if it even ends up being passable and 9 times out of ten it's awful. Do you have an example of an overbuild you DO like?
     
     
  #19684  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 3:18 PM
skyhigh07 skyhigh07 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 967
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
It's not the purpose or the height that bothers me, it's the design. I don't get why people are saying that this is a good example of an overbuild. It's completely out of character with the existing buildings and completely overshadows them.
It’s really about usage, cost and context. The new diamond street brownstones you mentioned are within a historic district and are remarkably indistinguishable from the older ones. I’m not sure who the developer is but they’re a rare anomaly. I really haven’t seen anything like it.

The overbuild is best suited for lab space usage and demand. I’m not sure how an alternative “historically appropriate” design would be conducive here. Brick and smaller windows? I’m just happy they’re preserving 2 of the 3 old buildings. Any other developer would knock them down.
     
     
  #19685  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 3:19 PM
skyhigh07 skyhigh07 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
This simply comes down to different taste in architecture. Personally, with an overbuild I prefer a clean break from the existing structure. I think this is very well done.

I don't want to try to match a 21st century build with prewar masonry. You're fortunate if it even ends up being passable and 9 times out of ten it's awful. Do you have an example of an overbuild you DO like?
100%. Well said.
     
     
  #19686  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 4:09 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
This simply comes down to different taste in architecture. Personally, with an overbuild I prefer a clean break from the existing structure. I think this is very well done.

I don't want to try to match a 21st century build with prewar masonry. You're fortunate if it even ends up being passable and 9 times out of ten it's awful. Do you have an example of an overbuild you DO like?
What if it were the other way around? In this hypothetical scenario, you have a modern all-glass lowrise that is overbuilt with prewar materials and design. Would you still like it?

I'm not even saying I want a overbuild that looks exactly like its base here. Any site, especially an overbuild, has its own contexts and needs. In this specific site, the only thing tying the two original structures together is that they're both prewar. Other than that, they use completely different materials and served two completely different purposes when built.

What I am saying is that somehow this design is less appropriate given the space than if they had just demolished the red brick building on the corner and built a completely new tower from scratch. In the same way that Soldier Field looks completely mismatched, this design clashes far too much to be appreciated, imo. I actually think I preferred the original design because it 1) Kept the third historical building and 2) Didn't clash too much as to completely draw away from the original structures.

I get it. It's completely a matter of personal taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyhigh07 View Post
It’s really about usage, cost and context. The new diamond street brownstones you mentioned are within a historic district and are remarkably indistinguishable from the older ones. I’m not sure who the developer is but they’re a rare anomaly. I really haven’t seen anything like it.

The overbuild is best suited for lab space usage and demand. I’m not sure how an alternative “historically appropriate” design would be conducive here. Brick and smaller windows? I’m just happy they’re preserving 2 of the 3 old buildings. Any other developer would knock them down.
Comments like this disappoint me though. It doesn't have to be an anomaly. Clearly there was enough of a demand for new structures here, and developers played ball and made something fantastic and in character as a result. A lot of what you see getting built in the hot neighborhoods right now (not all, mind you) is completely out of character with its surroundings. I realize that there are factors far beyond just people's differing tastes at play here; architecture as a career and industry isn't what it used to be. I started out at Drexel as an Architecture major and became less and less infatuated with what I saw.

I hate to do this, but it is at this point where I have to draw comparisons to other cities. There's certainly some crap going up in Chicago. Plenty, in fact. But so much of what is going up around the Red Line right now is all contextual. It all looks like Chicago. How many Lowrises built recently can you remove from their contexts and say, for certain, "oh yeah that looks Philly."

I also realize that my above comments can't really be applied to the overbuild at 23rd and Market. Completely different situation. But the two discussions are linked in that I think we could be doing a better job of designing structures that give better respect to their surroundings.

Sorry to drag this conversation so far away from the original topic, and I'll finish it with some more optimistic outlooks: the works that CANNO and Ambit have been designing lately are superb. Both are clearly local firms that put real effort into contextualizing everything that they design.
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129

Last edited by mcgrath618; May 19, 2022 at 4:34 PM.
     
     
  #19687  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 5:05 PM
Frontst17 Frontst17 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 279
Have to agree with Mcgrath, it’s nice and shiny but something about it is actually boring compared to what’s underneath it. Color and texture and true design elements underneath a decent glass curtain. Just needs something to show it belongs on top of the existing buildings. Also with the demand for life science space seemingly endless, I feel like it could be a good bit taller?
     
     
  #19688  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 5:27 PM
TK2001's Avatar
TK2001 TK2001 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Not your business
Posts: 2,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyhigh07 View Post
Given the market right now, I think it’s great. Traditional commercial high rises are going to take awhile to come back particularly in Philly and will likely never be how it once was for better or worse. The design has been reappropriated for lab space and we’ll likely see more developments like this in the future.
I totally agree with this. While the design is not the greatest, I think it's ok for the area and I think this overbuild is executed better than 113-121 South 19th Street. With the angled cuts in the new structure, I believe it's slightly reminiscent of Cira Center and 21M. The fact that the angles also push into the new structure allowing more attention on the older buildings is a great choice. I too would have loved more height on this building, but I also think with Aramark, 2222 Market, and 21M, they will create a pleasurable stepping effect to the taller towers to the east. I was not very fond of the older design, finding its massing and design so random yet I only enjoyed the taller height. So overall, I am excited for this and I welcome the addition
     
     
  #19689  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 5:37 PM
TK2001's Avatar
TK2001 TK2001 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Not your business
Posts: 2,452
I would also like to add that the south face will be flat....meaning there will most likely be another blank wall. That I'm not happy about, but it won't really be seen
     
     
  #19690  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 5:40 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,621
I think I actually prefer projects like the 19th Street project and the Saint James. At least in the most recent plans, the streetscape on the 19th St project was pretty much preserved. And the tower is set back pretty far from the buildings.

I think I'd be ok with the design here if it didn't come all the way out to the street. It dominates the buildings below too harshly that way. If the modern addition was set back from the street I'd be a lot less upset.
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
     
     
  #19691  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 6:59 PM
iheartphilly's Avatar
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Philly Rising Up!
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: motherEarth
Posts: 3,257
PIDC seeks partners to develop massive biotech campus on 40 acres of Schuylkill riverfront property

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...cell-gene.html

"Developing the Lower Schuylkill with life sciences space will add to the more than $4 billion in lab and manufacturing space development underway throughout this region. About 11 million square feet of lab and manufacturing space is currently under construction or proposed in the Philadelphia area, according to CBRE Inc. data. Projects vary in size and are located in areas that include University City, the Navy Yard and growing hubs in Philadelphia’s suburban counties."
     
     
  #19692  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 7:26 PM
Raja Raja is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I think I actually prefer projects like the 19th Street project and the Saint James. At least in the most recent plans, the streetscape on the 19th St project was pretty much preserved. And the tower is set back pretty far from the buildings.

I think I'd be ok with the design here if it didn't come all the way out to the street. It dominates the buildings below too harshly that way. If the modern addition was set back from the street I'd be a lot less upset.
Do you like the Beacon at 16/Walnut? It's a similar case where the new structure extended all the way down to street level on one side and otherwise matched the footprint of the original. Material choice was the difference.
     
     
  #19693  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 7:51 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raja View Post
Do you like the Beacon at 16/Walnut? It's a similar case where the new structure extended all the way down to street level on one side and otherwise matched the footprint of the original. Material choice was the difference.
I'm mixed on the Beacon. The thought crossed my mind a few times during this discussion and while I don't hate it, I think it's only because of the materials. If it was all glass I would probably despise it.
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
     
     
  #19694  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 8:07 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 526
I like the overbuild design, think it fits in well between the Aramark building and the new 22 & Market one. The modern overbuild design kind of accentuates the older buildings, which I think is kind of cool.

For the SEPTA plan, I would like something in the middle of option 1 and 2, like maybe if they extended 15 minute service to the airport and one of the chestnut hill branches.

Interesting news about the biotech campus; is that right next to Bartram's garden?

https://media.bizj.us/view/img/12264...1471-0-161.jpg
     
     
  #19695  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 8:23 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
I like the overbuild design, think it fits in well between the Aramark building and the new 22 & Market one. The modern overbuild design kind of accentuates the older buildings, which I think is kind of cool.

For the SEPTA plan, I would like something in the middle of option 1 and 2, like maybe if they extended 15 minute service to the airport and one of the chestnut hill branches.

Interesting news about the biotech campus; is that right next to Bartram's garden?

https://media.bizj.us/view/img/12264...1471-0-161.jpg
I'd need to check the plans again but I am fairly sure that part of Option 1 is 15 minute headways on the Airport Line (which makes sense because that is already being worked on right now)
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
     
     
  #19696  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 8:40 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 526
^^^ well that's good to hear, I know lots of people complain about the airport wait times (including myself).
     
     
  #19697  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 8:43 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
^^^ well that's good to hear, I know lots of people complain about the airport wait times (including myself).
Work is being done this summer to completely separate the Airport Line from the NEC. Should allow for 20 minute headways in the immediate term.
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
     
     
  #19698  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 9:01 PM
youngniems youngniems is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 25
I really like the SEPTA plan for regional rail. I think I like the second the most but I am confused about the transfers. Can someone explain how that would work? Also, this is all great but we still have many regional rail lines running every 2 hours on the weekends. At this point I would be happy to return to pre pandemic frequencies. What is taking SEPTA so long to return to at least hourly regional rail service on weekends and late night trains?
     
     
  #19699  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 9:10 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngniems View Post
I really like the SEPTA plan for regional rail. I think I like the second the most but I am confused about the transfers. Can someone explain how that would work?
What option two is proposing is the following: certain corridors would be designated as being worthy of Metro frequencies. To use a single line as an example, let's say I live along the Paoli/Thorndale line. If I live in Narberth, I can now take trains every 15 minutes into Center City. However, if I live in Malvern, I have to take one train that runs every 60 minutes to Radnor (the point on the map they've marked as the end of Metro frequencies) and then transfer at Radnor to the next inbound train. Express trains would exist during peak that would be a one seat ride, but only during Rush Hour. That line is a perfect example because of Amtrak; how do you expect on-time performance will be considering that Amtrak runs along the line?
Compare that to Option 1, where all lines see 30 minute maximum headways at all times of the day. So now, if I live at Narberth I have to wait a little longer for a train (headways are already 30 min anyways off peak on the PAO), but someone in Malvern actually has to wait less. Expresses will also still exist during peak hours. And as SEPTA gets more funding, they can run more frequent trains and get those down.

The big reason I am opposed to those transfers is because historically, similar systems were used to kill off the West Chester and Fox Chase lines. You're pretty much guaranteeing that ridership will plummet.

Quote:
Also, this is all great but we still have many regional rail lines running every 2 hours on the weekends. At this point I would be happy to return to pre pandemic frequencies. What is taking SEPTA so long to return to at least hourly regional rail service on weekends and late night trains?
Manpower. We literally do not have people to drive the trains.
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
     
     
  #19700  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 10:27 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 18,362
Gents. Philly has made it. It’s almost biweekly we are getting life sciences news. Pretty incredible. This is the industry Philadelphia can and is cornering to be an absolute leader in.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > General Development
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:27 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.