CHICAGO | General Developments

[west-town-brad]

Originally Posted by untitledreality

This.

A thousand times this. There are many websites, forums, blogs devoted to parents frantically trying to ensure their children receive the best education possible... and unfortunately there are many who eventually throw their hands up in the air and bail for the suburbs.

These people won't move to a new neighborhood with low quality educational choices (either placing their children in those schools or going private), they will simply pickup and leave. Chicago absolutely needs to retain these families, and more housing options will help that.

If you can find a way to include more Single Family Homes in neighborhoods with good schools, then you will retain families in the city.

When parents say they are moving to the suburbs or whatever for the schools, that is only part of the equation. They want good schools and an affordable (for them) single family home.

Because there are plenty of affordable housing options in neighborhoods with top public schools, but not single family houses that many people can afford.

I'm speaking as a parent that hangs out with a lot of other parents... sure, maybe one family out of ten will live in a duplex down condo for the long term but most will not.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by west-town-brad

I'm speaking as a parent that hangs out with a lot of other parents... sure, maybe one family out of ten will live in a duplex down condo for the long term but most will not.

I'm speaking as a parent that hangs out with a lot of other parents.... of the 15 families with elementary school age kids on our block, only 3 live in SFH's. the biggest thing that seems to hang over my neighbors' heads isn't SFH's, it's high school.

Most seem pretty content in their 2/3/6 flats and our great K-8 neighborhood CPS school, but it's high school that seems to drive most middle class families and up out to the burbs. There is no doubt that the burbs are just "simpler" from that perspective than the CPS magnet high school game.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by west-town-brad

If you can find a way to include more Single Family Homes in neighborhoods with good schools, then you will retain families in the city.

When parents say they are moving to the suburbs or whatever for the schools, that is only part of the equation. They want good schools and an affordable (for them) single family home.

Because there are plenty of affordable housing options in neighborhoods with top public schools, but not single family houses that many people can afford.

I'm speaking as a parent that hangs out with a lot of other parents... sure, maybe one family out of ten will live in a duplex down condo for the long term but most will not.

You can't go the whole way all in one step.

If a three bedroom condo is competitive price-wise with a suburban SFH in the burbs, you'll hold onto a number of those movers.

And if a SFH in a neighborhood with good-enough schools remains affordable to fairly affluent parents because the nearby supply of condos and apartments is high enough, you'll hold onto some of those parents too. This helps strengthen the "good enough" school to "pretty good", increasing demand for homes in that district, thus increasing property values and sending spill-over to the next neighborhood over that has "good enough" schools.

I mean, five Chicago public high schools are in the top five in the country, above New Trier. I just talked yesterday to a middle income family that moved from the city to Des Plaines after the kids graduated because they were in a good school in Chicago. We just need to keep that virtuous cycle rolling.

We can't just make the schools good all at once. In much of Chicago, the reason the schools are poor is because all of the nearby families are poor. People who are considering moving to Willmette for the schools simply aren't going to send their kids to high school with classmates who have a parent with extremely low socio-economic status.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by west-town-brad

If you can find a way to include more Single Family Homes in neighborhoods with good schools, then you will retain families in the city.

This is geometrically impossible, the same way it's impossible to widen Chicago streets to get rid of congestion.

Parents haven't accepted 3-bedroom condos en masse, because we don't build enough of them. The economics right now favor 1-bedrooms and studios, the only time you see a 3-BR is a hyper-luxury product priced at 12-15x the city's median household income.

I'm speaking as a parent that hangs out with a lot of other parents... sure, maybe one family out of ten will live in a duplex down condo for the long term but most will not.

If these condos are within reach financially, and in safe neighborhoods with good schools, then families will choose to live there.

There is also a capacity issue in CPS, unfortunately - not nearly enough slots in high-performing programs for the families who want them. I'm not an expert on schools and don't have a strong opinion on how best to improve them, but there are plenty of otherwise stable, majority-minority middle-class neighborhoods that just don't have the school quality.

[Busy Bee]

It almost seems like the government needs to step in to tackle a housing need the private sector is unwilling to serve. Maybe with a HUD-City-Developer PPP that would focus primarily on large units for people to affordably raise a family in the city. Co-op towers perhaps.

[west-town-brad]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I'm speaking as a parent that hangs out with a lot of other parents.... of the 15 families with elementary school age kids on our block, only 3 live in SFH's. the biggest thing that seems to hang over my neighbors' heads isn't SFH's, it's high school.

Most seem pretty content in their 2/3/6 flats and our great K-8 neighborhood CPS school, but it's high school that seems to drive most middle class families and up out to the burbs. There is no doubt that the burbs are just "simpler" from that perspective than the CPS magnet high school game.

sound like we are in agreement

[west-town-brad]

Originally Posted by ardecila

This is geometrically impossible, the same way it's impossible to widen Chicago streets to get rid of congestion.

Parents haven't accepted 3-bedroom condos en masse, because we don't build enough of them. The economics right now favor 1-bedrooms and studios, the only time you see a 3-BR is a hyper-luxury product priced at 12-15x the city's median household income.



If these condos are within reach financially, and in safe neighborhoods with good schools, then families will choose to live there.

There is also a capacity issue in CPS, unfortunately - not nearly enough slots in high-performing programs for the families who want them. I'm not an expert on schools and don't have a strong opinion on how best to improve them, but there are plenty of otherwise stable, majority-minority middle-class neighborhoods that just don't have the school quality.

Last condo I owned was in an 8-unit building with all duplex 3 bed 3 bath units. For each unit, once the couple had a kid they left in a year to the burbs. Neighborhood school was decent/trending better. It was a bit crazy to me because these condos with 1900 sq feet were all bigger than the house in the burbs I grew up in. They all moved into single family homes.

[west-town-brad]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

It almost seems like the government needs to step in to tackle a housing need the private sector is unwilling to serve. Maybe with a HUD-City-Developer PPP that would focus primarily on large units for people to affordably raise a family in the city. Co-op towers perhaps.

Government needs to step up and make more good schools.

There is PLENTY of housing in this city.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by west-town-brad

sound like we are in agreement

I don't think so.

Most of my neighbors live in "missing middle" multi-family housing and seem happy to do so, but, from many caual conversations I've had with them, the high school issue seems to be the greatest cause of concern for long-term residence in the city, not the desire for a detached SFH.

[r18tdi]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I don't think so.

Most of my neighbors live in "missing middle" multi-family housing and seem happy to do so, but, from many caual conversations I've had with them, the high school issue seems to be the greatest cause of concern for long-term residence in the city, not the desire for a detached SFH.

Yeah, I don't have a single acquaintance in the city that's sending their high school-aged kids to pubic school outside of Lincoln Park. Everyone else I know has gone the private route (Lane Tech, Payton, Latin, religious) or moved to the burbs.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by r18tdi

Yeah, I don't have a single acquaintance in the city that's sending their high school-aged kids to pubic school outside of Lincoln Park. Everyone else I know has gone the private route (Lane Tech, Payton, Latin) or simply moved to the burbs.

Lane and Payton are not private, they are CPS magnets, and along with jones, northside prep, and young, they are the "big 5" of CPS high schools and they are the 5 highest ranked public high schools in the state of illinois (yes, higher than even any of the suburban public high schools).

and they are EXTREMELY competitive to get into, particularly for certain demographics (white and affluent).

[r18tdi]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Lane and Payton are not private, they are CPS magnets, and along with jones, northside prep, and young, they are the "big 5" of CPS high schools and they are the 5 highest ranked public high schools in the state of illinois (yes, higher than even any of the suburban public high schools).

and they EXTREMELY competitive to get into, particularly for certain demographics (white and affluent).

Just shows my ignorance (and lack of kids). I knew those schools were uber-selective and just assumed they must be private.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Lane and Payton are not private, they are CPS magnets, and along with jones, northside prep, and young, they are the "big 5" of CPS high schools and they are the 5 highest ranked public high schools in the state of illinois (yes, higher than even any of the suburban public high schools).

and they are EXTREMELY competitive to get into, particularly for certain demographics (white and affluent).

In my opinion, this is the real problem. We have taken all the smart kids out the their neighborhoods and concentrated them in these 5 schools. Even now, the "solution" is to expand Walter Payton so more kids can access it. A better solution would be if all the kids in my neighborhood (Old Irving Park) went to the boundary high school, Schurz. Instead I see Loyola, Depaul College Prep, Lane, and more signs when walking around.

By trying to expand access to "great" schools (the 5 you mentioned), we have nearly eliminated "good" high schools (exception of Taft and LPHS)

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

By trying to expand access to "great" schools (the 5 you mentioned), we have nearly eliminated "good" high schools (exception of Taft and LPHS)

while i agree with your overall premise, the bolded isn't really true.

taft isn't really all that standout-ish ranking-wise, it's just an above average CPS boundary high school that middle class white people will actually send their kids to because of comfortability reasons* (i believe it's the whitest boundary HS in the city, followed by lincoln park and amundsen).

but in terms of academic performance, it's in the same general ballpark as other northside boundary schools like senn, mather, amundsen, lakeview, etc.

for whatever reason, Schurz is ranked quite a fair bit behind those others (though the physical building is probably the most spectacular school in the city).


(*) and this is another major complicating factor in all of this. there are some very good CPS magnet high schools on the south and west sides like brooks, hancock, lindblom, and westinghouse (all of them rank ahead of LPHS, FWIW), but generally speaking, white parents won't send their kids to schools in those neighborhoods regardless of how good their academics might be.

[SolarWind]

June 27, 2022







Not much progress the last few months.

[SolarWind]

June 27, 2022

[SolarWind]

June 27, 2022

[SolarWind]

June 27, 2022





June 28, 2022

[SolarWind]

June 27, 2022

[SolarWind]

June 28, 2022