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Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 9:58 PM
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California Poised to Overtake Germany as World’s No. 4 Economy

California Poised to Overtake Germany as World’s No. 4 Economy

Contrary to popular belief, the Golden State has proven resilient, outperforming its US and global peers.

Gavin Newsom is as familiar as anyone with the media narrative of earthquakes, persistent wildfires, droughts, homelessness and companies fleeing California to Texas for a tax- and regulation-free lifestyle. This is nothing new. California’s governor recalls a 1994 Time Magazine cover story citing “a string of disasters rocks the state to the core, forcing Californians to ponder their fate and the fading luster of its golden dream.”

And yet, “the California dream is still alive and well,” the state’s 40th governor said in a Zoom interview a month before his probable reelection.


He’s not wrong. California’s economy has proven relatively resilient, first through the pandemic and now through the current period of elevated inflation. So much so, that the Golden State’s gross domestic product is poised to overtake Germany’s as the fourth largest in the world after the US, China and Japan. It had already leapfrogged Brazil (No. 7) and France (No. 6) in 2015 and supplanted the UK (No. 5) in 2017. Although many of California's current figures won't be published until 2023, estimates suggest the state may have already caught Germany, with at least one forecast implying California is ahead by $72 billion when considering the state's recent growth rate.


California's trajectory is most transparent in the growing divergence between its 379 companies with a market value of at least $1 billion and the 155 publicly-traded firms based in Germany meeting a similar benchmark. Whereas corporate California revenues and market capitalization rose 147% and 117% during the past three years, Germany mustered inferior gains of 41% and 34%, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The margin of Germany's nominal GDP of $4.22 trillion over California's $3.357 trillion last year was the smallest on record and is about to disappear, with Europe's largest economy barely growing in 2022 and forecast to shrink in 2023.


“All this data continues to belie the dominant narrative and illusion” of California's “best days being behind us,” Newsom said. “As somebody who's grown up in California, I feel pride in California's resilience, leadership, its entrepreneurs, its formula for success that goes back over half a century,” he said, highlighting the state’s “conveyor belt for talent.”


The truth is that California outperforms the US and the rest of world across many industries. That's especially relevant with renewable energy, the fastest-growing business in California and Germany. The market capitalization of California companies in this business increased 731% the past three years, or 1.74 times more than their German counterparts, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Notable examples include Fremont-based Enphase Energy Inc., a solar and storage solutions provider, up 916%, or more than twice the 410% returned by wind-farm maker PNE AG in Cuxhaven along Germany's North Sea coast.

The dichotomy between corporate California and corporate Germany is most pronounced in their top three industries. California technology hardware, media and software saw sales increase 63%, 95% and 115% the past three years, boosting market valuations by 184%, 54% and 58%, data compiled by Bloomberg show. In Germany, health care, consumer discretionary and industrial products were erratic with a 43% increase and declines of 2% and 7% during the same periods. Market values rose a paltry 40%, 8% and 10%.

California's three-to-one growth advantage is similarly reflected in a comparison of the top 10 companies. Firms led by Google parent Alphabet Inc., Apple Inc. and Visa Inc. will see revenues rise 8% following last year's 34% increase as they turn $100 of sales into $$49 of profit. They increased their employment by 10%. Germany, led by SAP SE, Deutsche Telekom AG and Siemens AG, will sell 4% more of their products in 2023, down from a 10% increase in 2021, while generating $44 of profit from every $100 of sales. The German workforce declined 2% on average, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Germany, of course, has been severely impacted by the war in Ukraine.

Still, with just 40 million people, the California economy is punching above its weight on the world stage. Job creation is a particularly strong area, with unemployment falling to 3.9% in July, the lowest since data was compiled in 1976, before rising to 4.1% in August. The gap separating the state from the US national rate of 3.5% is the narrowest since August 2021 and for the first time since 2006, California's joblessness dipped below Texas (the largest two states for non-farm payrolls). The state’s jobless rate similarly outperformed Germany by almost a percentage point, the most since February 2020, data compiled by Bloomberg show.

Contrary to the prevailing perception of business dysfunction and exodus of people since the start of Covid-19 pandemic, the San Francisco Bay area accounts for 78% of the market capitalization of all publicly-traded companies in California, up from 70% five years ago. San Francisco's 42 listed companies, which forecasts suggest will see sales growth of 14% in 2023 and 2024, are 62% more numerous today than at the end of 2018 when London Breed became the first black woman and 45th mayor of the city. Oakland, home to the third-largest port in the state and eighth-largest in the US, has grown at a faster monthly rate (9.9%) than No. 1 Los Angeles (0.3%) and No. 2 Long Beach (8.7%) since 2015 when Libby Schaaf became the city's 50th mayor.
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 12:29 AM
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hmm, roughly the same size as cali area-wise, but double the people in germany.
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 12:57 AM
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Wow, that's incredible!
     
     
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Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 7:03 AM
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Billionaires. I would imagine the living standards of your average Joe would be the same (Germans earn less and have smaller houses, but have better quality of life, more leisure and less disparity) but it all gets skewed by the 1 percenters. Germany has more billionaires than California, but CA has the most proportion of billionaires per person, and they cumulatively hold $400 billion more than Germany's billionaires. Almost a third of California's GDP (double of Germany's proportion) is owned by the 124 billionaires, or 0.0003% of the population.

Also Germany has dropped nearly a trillion in the last year, which is the main reason California is poised to overtake -not that one side is outperforming, but that the other is underperforming, heavily. I imagine the outcomes for most of Europe is going to be catastrophic this winter, thanks to our lovely little proxy war. One quarter of all people over here will be going through winter without heating, it's that bad.

Last edited by muppet; Oct 31, 2022 at 7:26 AM.
     
     
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Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 4:27 PM
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"The Golden State’s gross domestic product is poised to overtake Germany’s as the fourth largest in the world after the US, China and Japan."


Last I checked, California is part of the US.
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 8:34 PM
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Yes, but the point is, US-sans-California is still a (much) bigger economy than California, which is why CA is fourth and not third.
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Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Yes, but the point is, US-sans-California is still a (much) bigger economy than California, which is why CA is fourth and not third.
Yes, but the whole premise of CA's economy being measured against that of other countries is flawed. California would not have the GDP it has without being part of the USA. Just look at the defense industry in Southern California alone for evidence. The Navy essentially built San Diego, and all those defense companies in LA (Northrup, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, etc.) grew into giant companies because of federal contracts and subsidy. A good amount of the water CA gets for agriculture comes from sources outside of the state. The ports and associated businesses are as large as they are primarily due to servicing the rest of the US...and on and on.

I suppose the headline is a nice feel good moment for CA, but it really is meaningless. I'd imagine if the Northeast US was a single state, it'd have a higher GDP/economy than CA. But of course that's not the case, so who cares.
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Yes, but the point is, US-sans-California is still a (much) bigger economy than California, which is why CA is fourth and not third.
Sure.

It's such a hypothetical situation/comparison that any notion of meaningfulness has been completely disabused. It's just fantasy stuff.

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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Yes, but the whole premise of CA's economy being measured against that of other countries is flawed. California would not have the GDP it has without being part of the USA. Just look at the defense industry in Southern California alone for evidence. The Navy essentially built San Diego, and all those defense companies in LA (Northrup, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, etc.) grew into giant companies because of federal contracts and subsidy. A good amount of the water CA gets for agriculture comes from sources outside of the state. The ports and associated businesses are as large as they are primarily due to servicing the rest of the US...and on and on.

I suppose the headline is a nice feel good moment for CA, but it really is meaningless. I'd imagine if the Northeast US was a single state, it'd have a higher GDP/economy than CA. But of course that's not the case, so who cares.
Exactly.

Putting an integral part of a whole in the same "ranking" that includes the whole, along with other wholes, doesn't make sense in this context.

But it makes a great story in fairy tale numbers world.
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 9:29 PM
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I'd imagine if the Northeast US was a single state, it'd have a higher GDP/economy than CA. But of course that's not the case, so who cares.
Yes. New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania have a combined "GDP" of roughly $3.68T vs California's $3.55T, and a combined population of 42.5M vs California's 39.5M. Northeast per capita "GDP" is $86,790 vs California's $90,000.
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Yes. New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania have a combined "GDP" of roughly $3.68T vs California's $3.55T, and a combined population of 42.5M vs California's 39.5M. Northeast per capita "GDP" is $86,790 vs California's $90,000.
Right. Or take a California-sized 165,000 sq mi rectangle and align it along the east coast or from Boston to Chicago or from...

... and the results would be the same.

But it would just be delineating by political lines on a map that are part of a whole anyway, just like the case with California.
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 9:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
Yes, but the whole premise of CA's economy being measured against that of other countries is flawed. California would not have the GDP it has without being part of the USA. Just look at the defense industry in Southern California alone for evidence. The Navy essentially built San Diego, and all those defense companies in LA (Northrup, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, etc.) grew into giant companies because of federal contracts and subsidy. A good amount of the water CA gets for agriculture comes from sources outside of the state. The ports and associated businesses are as large as they are primarily due to servicing the rest of the US...and on and on.

I suppose the headline is a nice feel good moment for CA, but it really is meaningless. I'd imagine if the Northeast US was a single state, it'd have a higher GDP/economy than CA. But of course that's not the case, so who cares.
What water do we get from out of state? Ive never heard of that before. Our water comes from the Sierra
     
     
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Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
What water do we get from out of state? Ive never heard of that before. Our water comes from the Sierra
The only source he could be referring to is the Colorado. In which case the Rockies are the ultimate source which is “out of state”, I guess?
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Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 9:54 PM
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
What water do we get from out of state? Ive never heard of that before. Our water comes from the Sierra
I'm not sure about the entire state, which I'm sure has many in-state sources, but Southern CA receives the bulk of its water from the Colorado River.
     
     
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Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 10:39 PM
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It's a matter of growth and currency exchange rates, we'll see.

UNC/Kenan Institute 2022 GDP estimates are very interesting-CA's two largest urban agglomerations are both trending upward, and The Bay Area is expected to top all US areas as far as GDP growth in 2022, which really blows my mind considering how unstable things feel lately.

Anyhow, LA apparently has a $1.510T economy and the Bay Area's economy is at $1.383T this year, if this report is accurate.

DC-Baltimore is inching closer to $1T

2022 GDP/ CSA or Uncombined MSA in Billions of Dollars:
$2,422 New York
$1,510 Los Angeles
$1,383 San Francisco
$940 Washington
$837 Chicago
$808 Boston
$682 Dallas
$598 Houston
$588 Philadelphia
$583 Seattle
$559 Atlanta
$476 Miami
$357 Detroit
$342 Minneapolis
$341 Phoenix
$330 Denver
$290 San Diego
$246 Orlando
$246 Portland
$245 Cleveland
$233 Charlotte
$216 Austin
$212 Salt Lake City
$204 St Louis
$204 Tampa
$198 Indianapolis
$197 Pittsburgh
$189 Raleigh
$189 Sacramento
$186 Kansas City
$185 Cincinnati
$185 Columbus
$171 Nashville
$163 San Antonio
$146 Las Vegas
$143 Milwaukee
$136 Hartford
$115 Jacksonville
$115 Virginia Beach
$102 New Orleans
$100 Greensboro
$98 Louisville
$98 Richmond
$93 Oklahoma City
$90 Memphis
$87 Greenville
$86 Grand Rapids
$85 Harrisburg
$83 Birmingham
$71 Fresno

2022 GDP Growth Projections Top 10:
+4.8% San Francisco
+4.3% Austin
+3.5% Seattle
+3.4% Raleigh
+3.1% Dallas
+3.0% Denver
+2.8% Salt Lake City
+2.5% Charlotte
+2.4% New Orleans, Orlando, Portland, San Antonio

Full report:
https://kenaninstitute.unc.edu/wp-co...-10122022r.pdf[/QUOTE]
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Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
What water do we get from out of state? Ive never heard of that before. Our water comes from the Sierra
The Colorado River provides the water for agriculture in the Imperial Valley and most of the residential/business use in San Diego.
     
     
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Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
The Colorado River provides the water for agriculture in the Imperial Valley and most of the residential/business use in San Diego.
The Colorado supplies ~ 2/3 of the water for LA and SD areas, for all uses.
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 11:21 PM
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And as I eluded to in my last post, currency exchange rates are hammering GDPs of foreign countries vs the US.

At this rate, CA will surpass Japan as well.

This is the IMFs 2022 GDP estimates at current prices:
Japan $4.300 Trillion
Germany $4.03 Trillion
--CALIFORNIA--- $3.68 Trillion
India $3.47 Trillion
UK $3.20 Trillion
France $2.78 Trillion
Canada $2.20 Trillion
Russia $2.13 Trillion
Italy $2.00 Trillion
Iran $1.97 Trillion
Brazil $1.89 Trillion
South Korea $1.73 Trillion
Australia $1.72 Trillion
Mexico $1.42 Trillion
Spain $1.39 Trillion
Indonesia $1.29 Trillion
Saudi Arabia $1.01 Trillion

^I just used CAs Q1-Q2 growth rate from bea.gov as a the growth rate for Q3 and Q4 to calculate a guess for CA.

At very least, California is now within striking distance of both Germany and Japan.
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Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
The Colorado supplies ~ 2/3 of the water for LA and SD areas, for all uses.
What's the sources you are getting that info?

Metropolitan Water District of SoCal, which is the state's wholesaler for the Colorado has a map of the regions overall sourcing. It says 1/4 of SoCal's water supply is from the Colorado, which means its an important source but certainly not the "bulk" of soCal's water sourcing. https://www.mwdh2o.com
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2022, 12:12 AM
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What's the sources you are getting that info?

Metropolitan Water District of SoCal, which is the state's wholesaler for the Colorado has a map of the regions overall sourcing. It says 1/4 of SoCal's water supply is from the Colorado, which means its an important source but certainly not the "bulk" of soCal's water sourcing. https://www.mwdh2o.com
I might have been reading it wrong... maybe it was that the bulk of SoCal's water was imported. And of that imported amount, 2/3 comes from the Colorado?
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2022, 12:13 AM
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Illinois passed the trillion dollar gdp already


Without the help of a massive CSA like Washington that has such a footprint


It’s like 6 states



https://www.chicagobusiness.com/juic...its-1-trillion
     
     
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