Tempe Development Thread

[ciweiss]

I'm starting to see some site work for Tempe Depot.

[CB1]

Development by Rio Salado and 101 by TMP.

[muertecaza]

Fence is down around the office portion of 100 Mill:

[muertecaza]

Cool picture from the Novus twitter account:



https://twitter.com/NovusASU/status/1508902313427193857

[xymox]

Originally Posted by muertecaza

Cool picture from the Novus twitter account:

https://twitter.com/NovusASU/status/1508902313427193857

What is that really tall crane for? That's not the hotel on the corner...is it?

[skiesthelimit]

Originally Posted by xymox

What is that really tall crane for? That's not the hotel on the corner...is it?

I believe the pic is out of date.

Tallest crane would be Atmosphere, crane behind that is Westin and then far right is 100 mill barely starting.

Major giveaway was the lack of the crane for Omni next to Mirabella.

[CBar]

As per https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...al/9470186002/
"Arizona Supreme Court allows Brnovich to continue to challenge parts of ASU-Omni hotel deal". Following are some quotes.

Brnovich can continue to argue two of his four claims: that the lease to Omni was not for the benefit of the state and its institutions, and that ASU paying for construction violates the Arizona Constitution’s gift clause.

In a unanimous opinion written by Justice John Lopez and released Tuesday, the justices agreed with lower courts in rejecting Brnovich’s argument that the deal is illegal because Omni can avoid paying property taxes, as university land is tax-exempt. They also voided the Court of Appeals decision and ruled the tax court’s awarding of attorney fees to the Arizona Board of Regents was premature.

[combusean]

I've never understood nor really delved into Brnovich's Don Quixote quest but it sounds like he might actually be right here with the implicit property tax abatement. It looks like ASU did overstep their bounds here. Arizona has complicated business property tax laws last I checked.

If ASU just allowed them to sidestep that, that could be problematic. From what I recall, ASU did give the Omni owner/operators a sweet deal to build the thing,

The bigger question is why he went after them to begin with. State-level agencies paying lawyers to sue each other is an enormous sign of bad governance.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by combusean

I've never understood nor really delved into Brnovich's Don Quixote quest but it sounds like he might actually be right here with the implicit property tax abatement. It looks like ASU did overstep their bounds here. Arizona has complicated business property tax laws last I checked.

If ASU just allowed them to sidestep that, that could be problematic. From what I recall, ASU did give the Omni owner/operators a sweet deal to build the thing,

The bigger question is why he went after them to begin with. State-level agencies paying lawyers to sue each other is an enormous sign of bad governance.

Pretty much agree with this, although it will be interesting to see if the AG's office can find the right legal theory to make whatever their point is. The Supreme Court confirmed the straightforward case in favor of ABOR: that the Omni land is not subject to state property taxes, and therefore the AG lacks a "tax" to be enforcing through this lawsuit.

The remaining claims are that either this lease here was invalid because it was not made to "benefit the state," or that the lease violated the state constitution gift clause. My guess is they have a hard time showing it was not to "benefit the state" generally. But the gift clause issue could be thorny after the Peoria/Huntington University case from last year. That case gave some real teeth to the gift clause, requiring the public entity to show equivalence between the public and private benefits exchanged. Could be tough for ABOR to show they got equivalent value.

Taking on "crony capitalism" has been a big part of Brnovich's pitch in his election campaigns. So who knows where the lawsuit goes if Brnovich is elected to the Senate.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by muertecaza

Pretty much agree with this, although it will be interesting to see if the AG's office can find the right legal theory to make whatever their point is. The Supreme Court confirmed the straightforward case in favor of ABOR: that the Omni land is not subject to state property taxes, and therefore the AG lacks a "tax" to be enforcing through this lawsuit.

The remaining claims are that either this lease here was invalid because it was not made to "benefit the state," or that the lease violated the state constitution gift clause. My guess is they have a hard time showing it was not to "benefit the state" generally. But the gift clause issue could be thorny after the Peoria/Huntington University case from last year. That case gave some real teeth to the gift clause, requiring the public entity to show equivalence between the public and private benefits exchanged. Could be tough for ABOR to show they got equivalent value.

Taking on "crony capitalism" has been a big part of Brnovich's pitch in his election campaigns. So who knows where the lawsuit goes if Brnovich is elected to the Senate.

I agree. If Englehorn and Schires were both viewed by the Court to be in violation of the Gift Clause, I have a hard time seeing this one pass muster. What is interesting is the Court said there was no tax to evade, but then acknowledged the potential for Gift Clause violation. Well if there was no tax to evade, then what is the gift? Seems counter intuitive. It's pretty clear that if there was no deal for ABOR to hold the title to the building, it would be taxable even if the land under it was still state owned... very clear that the deal was structured to avoid property tax on the improvement.

I also think Brno was doing this because going after incentives for big corporations is pretty popular in a bipartisan way. I'm sort of surprised at his crusade on ASU given their connections. I have to imagine it hurts his fundraising.

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

I agree. If Englehorn and Schires were both viewed by the Court to be in violation of the Gift Clause, I have a hard time seeing this one pass muster. What is interesting is the Court said there was no tax to evade, but then acknowledged the potential for Gift Clause violation. Well if there was no tax to evade, then what is the gift? Seems counter intuitive. It's pretty clear that if there was no deal for ABOR to hold the title to the building, it would be taxable even if the land under it was still state owned... very clear that the deal was structured to avoid property tax on the improvement.

I also think Brno was doing this because going after incentives for big corporations is pretty popular in a bipartisan way. I'm sort of surprised at his crusade on ASU given their connections. I have to imagine it hurts his fundraising.

Hoping they let a dead dog lie. ASU needs this revenue for their sports programs if they have any chance at all competing in the new world order of NIL Money and the transfer portal and more to come with possible unionization of college football players where money would have to come from the athletic departments/schools.

[Spitfiredude]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Hoping they let a dead dog lie. ASU needs this revenue for their sports programs if they have any chance at all competing in the new world order of NIL Money and the transfer portal and more to come with possible unionization of college football players where money would have to come from the athletic departments/schools.

Hahahaha ASU will never have a chance at any sport other than women’s triathlon. That athletic admin is so oblivious it’s not even funny. Same old people that have been there for decades. On top of a failure of an AD, Crow doesn’t care. Until that entire dept gets overhauled, nothing will change.

- Former ASU Football employee

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by Spitfiredude

Hahahaha ASU will never have a chance at any sport other than women’s triathlon. That athletic admin is so oblivious it’s not even funny. Same old people that have been there for decades. On top of a failure of an AD, Crow doesn’t care. Until that entire dept gets overhauled, nothing will change.

- Former ASU Football employee

Three words! Never say never!

[Obadno]

ASU has a decent sports program. Its just not a top 10 program.

ASU alumni want it to be a top ten. And sometimes they are teased that they can be a top ten. But they simply aren't.

They are like a 25-15 program unsurprisingly where they usually end up in a typical season.

There's hundreds of schools out there that wish they could be a top 25 too.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by Obadno

ASU has a decent sports program. Its just not a top 10 program.

ASU alumni want it to be a top ten. And sometimes they are teased that they can be a top ten. But they simply aren't.

They are like a 25-15 program unsurprisingly where they usually end up in a typical season.

There's hundreds of schools out there that wish they could be a top 25 too.

Agreed. I think it has the "potential" of being a Top 25 but they just don't have the booster money or alumni base donations to achieve it. Many alumni moan about it but will not support the program via donations. OR they don't get their butts over to sit on a stadium seat and support the program that way. I understand the problems w/ the current AD but choosing not to renew your football season tickets because of Ray/Herm hurts the program and AD even more and will take longer to recover. All this to say, yes, ASU needs Omni to happen and along w/ everything on the Novus Corridor.

Unfortunately, I think this speaks for most of the Valley sports in the region. The City will only get behind a team if it's experiencing success. Phoenix will always be a basketball town and I think the Suns are the only team exempt from this (although fan support was pretty much down during the rough stretch, but I think that was more due to mismanagement and just an overall hatred of Sarver LOL)

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by Obadno

ASU has a decent sports program. Its just not a top 10 program.

ASU alumni want it to be a top ten. And sometimes they are teased that they can be a top ten. But they simply aren't.

They are like a 25-15 program unsurprisingly where they usually end up in a typical season.

There's hundreds of schools out there that wish they could be a top 25 too.

It sure doesn't feel like ASU is a top 25 sports school. Given that it's the only major D-1 school in a metro area of 5 million, it's sad that it cannot do better mining AZ talent. In fact other programs have AZ circled as a state where talent can be absorbed since there aren't many D1 options in state but there are a ton of students. Our best players consistently go out of state.

I agree that alumni could do a better job of attending games, but they've done everything possible to kill the old tailgate experience so I won't even go any more. Tailgating was half the fun. I miss the 90's Saturday middle of the afternoon experience. Now it's Thursday and Friday night games fighting students for parking spots. It's $14 beers in a smaller stadium that feels more corporate than a University.

I think you're dreaming if you think a couple million here and there from Omni or the Novus athletic facilities district is going to make a big difference in the quality of ASU sports teams. As I understand it, those revenue sources are to pay for the bonds for many of the current facilities like the stadium upgrade. I don't think a few new sports facilities will change the culture. Also the Novus thing is now 12 years old and they have done what 3 or 4 midrise deals? I spoke with a developer from Texas who does high end multifam and he said he told ASU 'No' because they were such a pain in the butt to deal with so it wasn't worth it. They just had too many demands and dealing with them as your land owner is viewed as a 'cost' to them. There's a reason all the other Tempe parcels are getting developed while the old golf course sits dormant.

I saw a Novus slide deck several years ago that said the most prime parcel in Novus was on the NW corner Rural/Univ by the LR stop and to maximize the returns to Novus it needed to be min 10 stories (as I recall, it's been a minute) to get the proper value and I think they did 5-6 stories there. Not a good start. Also important to note their best deals: Marina Heights, Omni, Mirabella are all outside the Athletic Facilities Dist so they can't package those revenues with the stuff inside the AFD to sell bonds. Seems like developers didn't want to be inside Novus and pay a full ad valorem rate.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

It sure doesn't feel like ASU is a top 25 sports school. Given that it's the only major D-1 school in a metro area of 5 million, it's sad that it cannot do better mining AZ talent. In fact other programs have AZ circled as a state where talent can be absorbed since there aren't many D1 options in state but there are a ton of students. Our best players consistently go out of state.

I agree that alumni could do a better job of attending games, but they've done everything possible to kill the old tailgate experience so I won't even go any more. Tailgating was half the fun. I miss the 90's Saturday middle of the afternoon experience. Now it's Thursday and Friday night games fighting students for parking spots. It's $14 beers in a smaller stadium that feels more corporate than a University.

I think you're dreaming if you think a couple million here and there from Omni or the Novus athletic facilities district is going to make a big difference in the quality of ASU sports teams. As I understand it, those revenue sources are to pay for the bonds for many of the current facilities like the stadium upgrade. I don't think a few new sports facilities will change the culture. Also the Novus thing is now 12 years old and they have done what 3 or 4 midrise deals? I spoke with a developer from Texas who does high end multifam and he said he told ASU 'No' because they were such a pain in the butt to deal with so it wasn't worth it. They just had too many demands and dealing with them as your land owner is viewed as a 'cost' to them. There's a reason all the other Tempe parcels are getting developed while the old golf course sits dormant.

I saw a Novus slide deck several years ago that said the most prime parcel in Novus was on the NW corner Rural/Univ by the LR stop and to maximize the returns to Novus it needed to be min 10 stories (as I recall, it's been a minute) to get the proper value and I think they did 5-6 stories there. Not a good start. Also important to note their best deals: Marina Heights, Omni, Mirabella are all outside the Athletic Facilities Dist so they can't package those revenues with the stuff inside the AFD to sell bonds. Seems like developers didn't want to be inside Novus and pay a full ad valorem rate.

ASU is consistently within the top 25 ever season, at least for while.

No other sports matter outside of football.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

It sure doesn't feel like ASU is a top 25 sports school. Given that it's the only major D-1 school in a metro area of 5 million, it's sad that it cannot do better mining AZ talent. In fact other programs have AZ circled as a state where talent can be absorbed since there aren't many D1 options in state but there are a ton of students. Our best players consistently go out of state.

I agree that alumni could do a better job of attending games, but they've done everything possible to kill the old tailgate experience so I won't even go any more. Tailgating was half the fun. I miss the 90's Saturday middle of the afternoon experience. Now it's Thursday and Friday night games fighting students for parking spots. It's $14 beers in a smaller stadium that feels more corporate than a University.

I think you're dreaming if you think a couple million here and there from Omni or the Novus athletic facilities district is going to make a big difference in the quality of ASU sports teams. As I understand it, those revenue sources are to pay for the bonds for many of the current facilities like the stadium upgrade. I don't think a few new sports facilities will change the culture. Also the Novus thing is now 12 years old and they have done what 3 or 4 midrise deals? I spoke with a developer from Texas who does high end multifam and he said he told ASU 'No' because they were such a pain in the butt to deal with so it wasn't worth it. They just had too many demands and dealing with them as your land owner is viewed as a 'cost' to them. There's a reason all the other Tempe parcels are getting developed while the old golf course sits dormant.

I saw a Novus slide deck several years ago that said the most prime parcel in Novus was on the NW corner Rural/Univ by the LR stop and to maximize the returns to Novus it needed to be min 10 stories (as I recall, it's been a minute) to get the proper value and I think they did 5-6 stories there. Not a good start. Also important to note their best deals: Marina Heights, Omni, Mirabella are all outside the Athletic Facilities Dist so they can't package those revenues with the stuff inside the AFD to sell bonds. Seems like developers didn't want to be inside Novus and pay a full ad valorem rate.

Yep, the tailgating experience is all but gone and whatever surface parking is left will be gobbled up soon by Novus development. At some point, I wish they would allow to tailgate on ASU property, near Old Main for example. Think what USC does on gamedays for tailgating. I mean, that's really the only option left besides tailgating in a garage. The problem with ASU, in general, is that it is competing w/ all 4 major sports, as well as other entertainment options, for your dollar. I have some other opinions on AZ talent leaving the state, but hey that's a topic for a sports forum. Again, hard to complain about the on-field product and then choose not to support them with dollars.

Not nit-picking here but couple of things are not totally true. Marina Heights is indeed part of Novus Corridor as it was identified as Phase 1. The NWC of Rural/University still has some possibility to be taller as Parcel 3CS is still available. It's always been marketed as multi-phased effort and think I saw anywhere from 25-30 years until full-build out. As for the golf course being dormant, Parcel 4F and Parcel 3G are currently under planning review.

I haven't even brought up the MPA and the Coyote's use of it for the next couple of years. Novus Corridor is starting to heat up. One thing I will say, is that they need to go ahead and renovate The Bank already. CBH has been doing a great job bringing in recruits, but hopefully a revamped arena will help as well (along w/ NIL $$$).

Land use plan for your reference:
https://www.novusasu.com/wp-content/...e-Plan_low.pdf

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by Obadno

ASU is consistently within the top 25 ever season, at least for while.

No other sports matter outside of football.

ASU football has not finished in the top 25 since 2014.
Top 25 finishes in 4 seasons in the last 20 years.
Zero top 10 final rankings in the last 20 years and only 1 in the last 30+ years (in 1996, Plummer Rose Bowl season)

ASU's best days of football were in the 1970's and 1980's.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb...ate/index.html

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

ASU football has not finished in the top 25 since 2014.
Top 25 finishes in 4 seasons in the last 20 years.
Zero top 10 final rankings in the last 20 years and only 1 in the last 30+ years (in 1996, Plummer Rose Bowl season)

ASU's best days of football were in the 1970's and 1980's.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb...ate/index.html

Jesus Christ shut up you nerd they are usually ranked at some point in the season.