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  #341  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 4:21 AM
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^ Stone him too!
i like you
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  #342  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 8:30 AM
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Back to the Malkins' question of why a building of 68 stories has to be so tall...
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/env_...ndixi_feis.pdf


Quote:
3. The application materials and the DEIS indicate that the 15 Penn Plaza project would reach approximately 1,200 feet in height (1,134 feet or 1,156 feet to the top of roof; 1,190 feet or 1,216 feet to top of screen), but contain only 67 stories in the single tenant scenario or 68 stories in the multi-tenant scenario.

We are confused as to why approximately 14 feet per story is justified for a 67 or 68 story building to reach such great heights. In comparison, ESB is 102 stories high and reaches approximately the same height as the 15 Penn Plaza project (not including the ESB's broadcast tower), and the state-of-the-art New York Times Building at the intersection of Eighth Avenue and 42nd Street is 52-stories and 748 feet tall. We would respectfully request justification for the 15 Penn Plaza project height.

In addition, we request information on whether a mast, a spire, or antenna or other similar structure(s) is anticipated to be constructed or installed atop the 15 Penn Plaza project and if so, up to what height, so that we and the public can know the true and overall height of the project.

Some technical answers were given. I know a few here have wondered about that as well...

Quote:
(page 37)

3. The amount of mechanical space in the building seemed extensive, and a question was asked
regarding how it compared to other financial service headquarters.


• State-of-the-art financial services firm headquarters, particularly those with
large trading floors, require complete redundancy in systems and equipment to
support their mission-critical trading and financial systems. This results in
both increased air conditioning and electrical loads and significantly greater
mechanical space.

• The amount of mechanical space in the single-tenant building reflects the
requirements of the financial services firm for which the building was initially
designed. A summary of the mechanical infrastructure systems present in this
design, put together by Jaros, Baum and Bolles (JB&B), is included as
Attachment 3.

Because of the proximity of the train tracks directly below the 15 Penn site,
nearly all of the mechanical equipment must be housed in the tower rising
above the ground. This contrasts with other financial service headquarters,
which are able to locate mechanical equipment underground.


• The building that most resembles 15 Penn, in terms of the inability to use
below-ground space for mechanical equipment due to its location over train
tracks, is the former Bear Stearns headquarters at 383 Madison Avenue.
Mechanical space above grade, including mechanical space on office floors,
represents 20.4% of total above-grade gross square footage at that site;
in the proposed single-tenant building, similar mechanical space represents 21.7%
of the above-grade gross square footage.

• In answer to a specific question raised at the hearing, all mechanical
equipment areas serving data and IT centers are included within this
percentage.
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  #343  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 5:08 PM
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You're going to have to stone me too, because I agree with Tony Malkin. The Empire State building deserves to retain its title and midtown isn't the only place in New York in dire need of skyscrapers! Sheesh.

No tenants, a big unnecessary addon to the skyline, when Lower Manhattan is crying for more office space. Are you kidding me? If you look at it from a certain point on the Jersey side, it would have looked like they demolished the Empire Sate Building.

Either demolish the hotel and chop the office tower down by 20 stories, or give the hotel a 21st Century overhaul.
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  #344  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 5:36 PM
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You're going to have to stone me too, because I agree with Tony Malkin. The Empire State building deserves to retain its title and midtown isn't the only place in New York in dire need of skyscrapers! Sheesh.

No tenants, a big unnecessary addon to the skyline, when Lower Manhattan is crying for more office space. Are you kidding me? If you look at it from a certain point on the Jersey side, it would have looked like they demolished the Empire Sate Building.

Either demolish the hotel and chop the office tower down by 20 stories, or give the hotel a 21st Century overhaul.
no offence but that makes no sense,the ESB is not god and while its the king of skyscrapers its in the middle of a vibrant and changing city.to say that views will be obstructed is silly thats like an argument i head about Beekman place obstructing one individuals view of the Brooklyn Bridge from his office in the Woolworth building,15 Penn Plaza will only block it for a vey specific vantage point and thats all.15 Penn Plaza is dead center in the middle of a huge transportation center and commercial district. not to mention that it will be right next to the soon to be redeveloped MSG which has no height restrictions and is also an ideal place to build supertall skyscrapers,right behind the post office on 33rd and 9th ave. were gonna have the Manhattan west towers and one will be the same height as 15 Penn Plaza. behind the daily news HQ directly behind the Manhattan West site is the Hudson yards which is destined for towers larger than ESB, to the north of that will lie buildings like Girasole,WPC, Sherwood equities towers and the Javits center hotel. LM is screaming for space but there getting the WTC,50 west street and the Beekman tower. besides that where would you put a tower of this size in LM? theres no space left to sustain large office towers. so in turn the already developing and future developing new urban environment that lies on Midtowns west side is the ideal place to build this tower.
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  #345  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 5:47 PM
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where are they getting the required tenants from? out of their asses?
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  #346  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 5:54 PM
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where are they getting the required tenants from? out of their asses?
no from here

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  #347  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 7:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian.odonnell20 View Post
where are they getting the required tenants from? out of their asses?
Surely you are smarter than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BStyles View Post
The Empire State building deserves to retain its title and midtown isn't the only place in New York in dire need of skyscrapers! Sheesh.
Why stop there. The Empire State deserves to retain its title as the world's tallest building. If any building does, it does. But, as we live in a living, growing, and ever changing world, that was never going to be. Even though this skyscraper won't top it in height, there have been numerous proposals in midtown that would have, and that's the normal, natural state of things in a real, living city. Manhattan is not some living museum, something I've said countless times. If you want to see it preserved as it is, take a photo, and cherish it forever. If you want to live in a world where there's a possibility of seeing something new, by all means, join the rest of us.

And for the record, Midtown is the only place where skyscrapers of such size are zoned to go. Downtown has no room left, and frankly, many companies prefer to be in Midtown.
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  #348  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 8:07 PM
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NO! not another one bryant part!

and this thing is ten times more fat and fugly looking!

please let this not get built!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #349  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 8:10 PM
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NO! not another one bryant part!

and this thing is ten times more fat and fugly looking!

please let this not get built!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*sighs* im just going to make believe you didnt say that ...how could you hate the Bank Of America Tower(my favorite modern skyscraper) ....let alot this tower.....

Last edited by NYguy; Aug 15, 2010 at 8:55 PM.
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  #350  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
NO! not another one bryant part!
and this thing is ten times more fat and fugly looking!
If this building were a few hundred feet shorter, I guess you could call it as fat as the BofA (btw, who says fat can't be beautiful! I like the BofA.)

But it's just right for its size, and would probably look "slimmer" overall than the tallest Manhattan West tower, though both are proposed at the same height.







Meanwhile, you can't find a better location, transitwise, for this tower.
Not even the WTC with its hubs (Fulton Center and PATH terminal) can beat it.




Below ground, here's a look at the Gimbel's Passageway that will reopen connecting the various rail lines...




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  #351  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyscrapersOfNewYork View Post
*sighs* im just going to make believe you didnt say that ...how could you hate the Bank Of America Tower(my favorite modern skyscraper) ....let alot this tower.....
since my post was deleted i will respond again...

It is FAT and UGLY and not at all elegant, that is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
If this building were a few hundred feet shorter, I guess you could call it as fat as the BofA (btw, who says fat can't be beautiful! I like the BofA.)

But it's just right for its size, and would probably look "slimmer" overall than the tallest Manhattan West tower, though both are proposed at the same height.
i just hate towers with that huge of a floor plan, and the fact that this thing is practically right in the face of ESB, i really hope it does not get built. and Manhattan west is slim form the other side, not nearly as huge as this thing.
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  #352  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 10:40 PM
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i just hate towers with that huge of a floor plan, and the fact that this thing is practically right in the face of ESB, i really hope it does not get built.
well its about 90% the way there,city council has expressed no objection toward this project. and if you dont like large floor plates then i suppose GE,ESB,WTC Twin Towers and Chrysler just dont tickle your fancy.
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  #353  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
It is FAT and UGLY and not at all elegant, that is all.
Elegant, it may not be. I don't think "elegant" is a word that comes to mind while walking the canyons of Manhattan. But as a modern New York City office building, it's PERFECT.
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  #354  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 11:12 PM
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A tower like 15 Penn and the ESB's lone dominance is long overdue. With the exception of the city council's vote, there's little or nothing anyone else can whine about to bring the proposal down. With so many firms looking for office space, it's only a matter of time before we'll see a tenant land here.
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  #355  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 2:44 AM
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whatever, i'll agree to disagree, i still think this thing is as ugly as hell.
but its not my city so i should not be worried.
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  #356  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 3:11 AM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
whatever, i'll agree to disagree, i still think this thing is as ugly as hell.
but its not my city so i should not be worried.
That's the spirit...
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  #357  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 3:28 AM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
whatever, i'll agree to disagree, i still think this thing is as ugly as hell.
but its not my city so i should not be worried.
Hey at the end of they day that's just your opinion, so feel free to judge, just hope that your City will get something that you like one day ;]
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  #358  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2010, 1:50 PM
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http://www.observer.com/2010/real-es...fending-empire

Defending the Empire: The Campaign Against the Empire State Building's Giant Neighbor to the West


Anthony Malkin

By Eliot Brown
August 17, 2010

Quote:
This past spring, Anthony Malkin, president of Malkin Properties and an owner of the Empire State Building, started paying attention to an office tower planned by Vornado Realty Trust. The giant office landlord was seeking approvals to build a tower up to 1,216 feet high two blocks to his building's west, on what's now the site of the Hotel Pennsylvania, at 33rd Street and Seventh Avenue.

The tower's height, to Mr. Malkin, was worrisome, so he researched the issue and fired off a letter to the City Planning Commission, raising concerns about the effect it would have on views of the landmarked Empire State Building. The letter had no impact: The commission voted to approve Vornado's tower without major changes.

Now, with the skyscraper poised to clear a final hurdle before a key City Council committee next week, Mr. Malkin is rushing to round up critics of the tower—and supporters of the Empire State Building's unique place in the skyline—in an attempt to urge the Council or Vornado to scale back.


And while many civic groups and elected officials have generally been supportive of the new tower so far, Mr. Malkin has caught at least a bit of traction: On Tuesday, the New York Landmarks Conservancy decided to speak out about the tower on account of the effect on the Empire State Building; and other civic groups are considering similar actions.

"What this does to New York City, we think, is wrong," Mr. Malkin told The Observer Tuesday. "It just boggles the mind that people would allow this to be done to the skyline of New York City. Is this our persona: cold; impersonal?"

FOR EIGHT DECADES, the Empire State Building has dominated the public's perception of New York City's skyline. Not only is the Art Deco tower the city's tallest, but its aesthetic supremacy is compounded by its location: At 34th Street, it is south of the skyscraper fray of central midtown, making it a tree amid the plains of midtown south.

Two blocks west and one block south, Vornado—an office space titan headed by its forceful, Bronx-raised chairman, Steve Roth—has its own vision for the skyline, and it's somewhat different. For more than a decade, Mr. Roth has been scooping up property after property around Penn Station, guided by the hope that when New York grows and needs new sites for office towers, they will blossom around the country's largest rail hub.

Chief in this vision is a would-be office tower to rise in place of the cramped and dingy Hotel Pennsylvania—a Pelli Clarke Pelli-designed skyscraper that would, as currently envisioned, rise from a boxy base like a slightly tapering glass obelisk, soaring to 1,216 feet (or 1,190 feet, under a second design). Given that this would put it just 34 feet shy of the Empire State Building's peak (the antenna is not counted in the height), the tower, named 15 Penn Plaza, would be a formidable visual rival from afar and on postcards.


Hence Mr. Malkin's apprehension.

Mr. Malkin, the scion of a four-generation real estate empire, is not one to bite his tongue. He got into a public spat with City Council Speaker Christine Quinn in June when he refused to honor Mother Teresa by lighting the Empire State Building for what would be her 100th birthday. Earlier this week, The Wall Street Journal quoted him as calling green-design standards "bullshit" for being too lax. And, in 2007, with landlord Douglas Durst, he took out newspaper ads that publicly criticized the state for building the Freedom Tower at the World Trade Center, a move akin to a campaign his grandfather Lawrence Wein led with Mr. Durst's father when the original twin towers were planned (those towers bested the Empire State Building as the city's tallest).

He first came to be involved with 15 Penn Plaza when Vornado began shepherding the plans for the tower through the city's seven-month-long public-approval process, which concludes with the vote by the City Council this month. The size of the tower caught him off-guard, he said. He began to round up consultants and push for changes, including at the City Planning Commission, given that such a building so close by would significantly change the skyline.

"We're not talking about preventing tall buildings in New York," Mr. Malkin said. "The question here is this tall building here in New York, being approximately 800, 900 feet away from the Empire State Building, crowding the distinctive skyline of the city."

He is no fan of the design—he likened it to "an undersea ICBM"—and sees a decision on the tower as a historic one, saying it is "akin to the loss of Penn Station."

As for what's driving Mr. Malkin, it seems to be a transparent self-interest. He views himself as a guardian of his building's place in the skyline, and, as such, he is protective of anything that might encroach on that. If there are financial motivations-and Mr. Malkin says there are not-they are not obvious (although he has raised concerns that the new skyscraper would interfere with his building's radio tower). The Vornado tower and the Empire State Building would compete for two different types of tenants; namely, those willing to pay high rents for modern space at the Vornado tower (banks and the like), and those who can't. Tenants at the Empire State Building include the FDIC and nonprofits like Human Rights Watch, for instance.

CAMPAIGNS AGAINST MAJOR towers are ingrained in the history of New York, of course, but rarely are they led—or even participated in—by major landlords. Typically, it is the local residents who put landlords on the defensive, often using many of the same tactics as Mr. Malkin (appealing to civic groups; faulting the environmental review; making renderings to illustrate a proposed building's effects). But unlike the typical Upper West Side renter concerned about a new condo tower across the street, he has a bit more of a platform on which to stand.

Further, Mr. Malkin's argument is not without precedent, at least if one is to look at the model set by the Bloomberg administration last year, when the City Planning Commission chopped 200 feet off the height of the 1,250-foot-tall, Jean Nouvel-designed tower next to MoMA. The reasoning, from the Planning Commission, was that the design for the tower's top was not shown to merit "being in the zone of the Empire State Building's iconic spire."

"It's hard to understand how City Planning could say that 15 Penn Plaza would have no impact on the Empire State Building when they already lowered a proposed 53rd Street building for that very reason," said Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy, who added that her group does not oppose development on the Hotel Pennsylvania. "We would urge the Council to look at the discretionary waivers and bonuses this proposal has received."

The local community board has been critical of the Vornado plan, and opposed it on a number of grounds. And the powerful hotel workers' union has been concerned with the plans for the tower, given that it would involve shuttering the giant Hotel Pennsylvania.

Of course, this is all coming quite late in the process, so much so that it's hard to see how it would have much of an effect, especially when the tower has received support from some civic groups and the borough president. The clock is ticking, with the City Council vote scheduled for next week, and strong opposition movements take time, particularly when heated opposition did not form sooner in the process.

And Mr. Malkin's earlier tiff with Ms. Quinn, the Council speaker, over Mother Teresa's birthday can't help, as the tower sits in her district.


That said, the proposed tower may, in the end, simply prove to be theoretical. Vornado is by no means ready to demolish the Hotel Pennsylvania, a property that, despite its less-than-rave reviews, was minting cash for the company when room rates were high in 2007 and 2008.

Further, Vornado has said it is only moving ahead with the rezoning now to have the option for building the tower at some later date, if and when it finds an anchor tenant. The firm declined to comment on Mr. Malkin's criticism.
* * * * * * * * * * * *

The saga ends on Monday when the City Council takes up the issue...
http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/Meet...114008&Search=
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  #359  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2010, 2:53 PM
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Mr. Malkin said, "The question here is this tall building here in New York, being approximately 800, 900 feet away from the Empire State Building, crowding the distinctive skyline of the city."

What makes New York's skyline so distinctive is it's crowding. Hopefully this tower gets built at its proposed height.
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  #360  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2010, 9:29 PM
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Midtown Skyline Battle Now Being Fought With Renderings

[The imagined new skyline from Gravesend]

For those who weren't following along over the weekend, there's a battle raging in Midtown between the Empire State Building and the proposed 15 Penn Plaza project, a 1,150-foot tower soon to come before the City Council. Defenders of the Empire state Building and its views have already thrown the dreaded MoMA tower comparison in 15 Penn's facade, so what's left to do? Demonstrate through rendering magic just how much 15 Penn will change the city's skyline! Archpaper reprints a few renderings sent out by a group called Friends of the New York Skyline, a coalition that includes the Municipal Art Society and the Historic Districts Council. So take a look, and then take sides.


One more imaginary view-killing >>

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/0...renderings.php
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