Chicago's city worker residency requirement

[mhays]

The number of traditional SFR lots in Seattle is shrinking. While we should pay more, we'd need to pay $250k/year so they could compete for those houses, and that's not realistic.

Perhaps if every patrol officer made $60+/hour we could find enough cops to take the money and live in-city, but it wouldn't be the ones who insist on big houses.

Based upon a spreadsheet of every City of Seattle employee's wages, the lowest paid patrol officer was at $44.01/hour in April. Including overtime (iirc everyone's getting a lot these days as they're understaffed) they must all make six figures. https://data.seattle.gov/City-Busine...Data/2khk-5ukd

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I support city residency requirements, but the one major drawback is the dilution of talent.

If you're hiring for your company and you were told you could only hire people with a certain city address, that would certainly impact the hiring process. It could especially be problematic for a very expensive city with small city limits (say a SF or a Boston) or a city that frankly isn't desirable to most (say a Detroit or Cleveland).

Yeah, Chicago is probably in somewhat of a sweet spot for this to work well. It's both hugely populous and huge in area, with a very wide diversity of neighborhood types and price points.

In some hyper-expensive tiny boutique city where even crappy little studio apartments start at $1,500/month, it's probably not terribly realistic to force the garbage man to live within city limits.

At the same time, Chicago also has enough highly desirable areas for the professional class such that hiring for upper level government roles still has a decent enough applicant pool to draw from/attract to.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mhays

The number of traditional SFR lots in Seattle is shrinking. While we should pay more, we'd need to pay $250k/year so they could compete for those houses, and that's not realistic.

Perhaps if every patrol officer made $60+/hour we could find enough cops to take the money and live in-city, but it wouldn't be the ones who insist on big houses.

Based upon a spreadsheet of every City of Seattle employee's wages, the lowest paid patrol officer was at $44.01/hour in April. Including overtime (iirc everyone's getting a lot these days as they're understaffed) they must all make six figures. https://data.seattle.gov/City-Busine...Data/2khk-5ukd

To be clear, I think every city should determine the policy that is best for their city. That said, I do think that people should be extremely familiar with the cities for which they are hired to police or provide other services. Especially when it is a large complex city like NYC, Chicago, or Detroit. I think cost of living is a good reason for allowing workers to live elsewhere, but I don't think desirability of the community is a compelling reason. If the mayor of a city has to live in the city then why don't the people who work for her have to do the same?

[mhays]

That's about symbolism. I've never heard a good argument that residency requirements support quality of work. For every cop or administrator that is more caring because it's their community, there are other good people that disqualify themselves due to the requirement.

A mayor represents the public, and their electability and job are partially symbolism. City managers, who aren't elected, sometimes don't live in their jurisdictions...cities want good managers and often don't want to narrow things too much.

To carry your logic forward, why stop at city limits? If a cop has a mile-square beat, should he be required to live in that mile? Does he have to move if his beat changes? How else can he be part of that community?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by mhays

To carry your logic forward, why stop at city limits? If a cop has a mile-square beat, should he be required to live in that mile? Does he have to move if his beat changes? How else can he be part of that community?

Right, in theory it makes sense to have employees invested in the community. But an address doesn't necessarily confirm a personal investment. A Chicago cop probably isn't living in Englewood, and probably doesn't have much off-work interaction with the most troubled communities. They probably live in a fringe cop neighborhood that isn't much different from nearby burbs. If there were no residency requirement, and they lived west of Midway instead of east, would they really be worse at their job? City residency mostly makes sense to retain tax base and ensure that taxpayer investments have maximum impact.

[Steely Dan]

^ I agree with all of that.

I don't have data, but I very strongly suspect that a solid majoity of CPD officers do not live in community areas that they regularly patrol.

The main point of the residency requirement is to keep city tax dollars in the city, with the added knock-on effect of that being neighborhood stabilization in areas where city workers tend to congregate.


As an aside, Midway is not on chicago's western border because of the annexation of the Garfield Ridge and Clearing community areas that jut out a couple miles west of midway, all the way out to Harlem.


Source: wikipedia

[mhays]

So a city that already has serious housing pressures and a strong tax base....

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mhays

So a city that already has serious housing pressures and a strong tax base....

Yeah, probably not a good fit for a city like Seattle.

But comparing Seattle against Chicago is dumb.

Very different cities with very different challenges.


When we look at a more apples to apples case with the two monsters of the Midwest (Chicago and Detroit), I don't think it's a stretch to say "yeah, a city worker residency requirement is probably not a bad idea for those kinds of cities facing issues of population/urban decline combined with runaway sprawl".

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mhays

To carry your logic forward, why stop at city limits? If a cop has a mile-square beat, should he be required to live in that mile? Does he have to move if his beat changes? How else can he be part of that community?

A cop should definitely understand the neighborhood that he or she patrols. It is fundamental to police work.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

A cop should definitely understand the neighborhood that he or she patrols. It is fundamental to police work.

Probably, but most city positions aren't like that. I don't think a city accountant or lawyer or land surveyor has to have intimate knowledge of neighborhood workings. I don't even think most police department employees are beat cops.

And usually when there are residency requirements, you have a bunch of workers living on the furthest city fringe, sometimes even faking residencies. I know when Detroit had residency requirements, they mostly on the ultra-fringes, a few blocks from the burbs. And there was massive cheating. Cops would pool their money for a rental house, then all register their official addresses there, while living with their families in the burbs. Such practices were notorious.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Probably, but most city positions aren't like that. I don't think a city accountant or lawyer or land surveyor has to have intimate knowledge of neighborhood workings. I don't even think most police department employees are beat cops.

And usually when there are residency requirements, you have a bunch of workers living on the furthest city fringe, sometimes even faking residencies. I know when Detroit had residency requirements, they mostly on the ultra-fringes, a few blocks from the burbs. And there was massive cheating. Cops would pool their money for a rental house, then all register their official addresses there, while living with their families in the burbs. Such practices were notorious.

But even then almost all of the cops had legitimately lived in the city at one point. They understood the city even if they did not actually live there anymore. What's happening now in Detroit is that they're hiring people to be cops that don't even know how to get around the city without a map.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

A cop should definitely understand the neighborhood that he or she patrols. It is fundamental to police work.

Is working there every day not enough?

Shouldn't the cop get some "off" time? I suspect you don't know any cops.

As for hiring people who don't know the city yet, are you suggesting they have to live there for a period before being hired? How are you going to recruit anybody?

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

But even then almost all of the cops had legitimately lived in the city at one point. They understood the city even if they did not actually live there anymore. What's happening now in Detroit is that they're hiring people to be cops that don't even know how to get around the city without a map.

If a cop is so bad at their job that they can’t make the city they have to live in safe and choose to live outside the jurisdiction because they have failed at their job, they should be fired.

[mhays]

So fire everyone? What if other factors come to play? What if there aren't enough cops, like in my city which is down 30% since 2020 and desperately wants to hire more? What if some cops do better than others? Should even the best get fired too?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mhays

Is working there every day not enough?

Shouldn't the cop get some "off" time?

How would someone who has no perspective of the community they are policing ever be a more qualified hire than someone who actually lives in the community? I don't understand how requiring cops to live in, or demonstrate that they have lived in, a community limits the talent pool. Understanding of the community is key to doing the job lol.

Originally Posted by mhays

I suspect you don't know any cops.

lol I was thinking the same about you. It's bizarre that anyone thinks a cop can effectively police a city that they don't know. If your house gets robbed, you want a cop that knows all of the details of getting in and out of your neighborhood. If your house is on fire, you want someone driving the truck that knows your street grid like the back of your hand. It really is basic logic lol.

[mhays]

You honestly think living outside the city limits is a big factor with any of this?

Quite the bizarre assumptions you're throwing around.

You're also probably not involved with hiring. The talent pool issue isn't a question, just something you don't get.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mhays

You honestly think living outside the city limits is a big factor with any of this?

Quite the bizarre assumptions you're throwing around.

You're also probably not involved with hiring. The talent pool issue isn't a question, just something you don't get.

Please go back and read the thread. I have clearly stated what I was saying, and I did not say that someone has to always be present in the city to understand it.

[mhays]

The logic doesn't work any better if they have to have once lived inside city limits.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mhays

The logic doesn't work any better if they have to have once lived inside city limits.

Oh okay.

Anyway, I'm not being swayed in my opinion on this so will bow out of this discussion.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

How would someone who has no perspective of the community they are policing ever be a more qualified hire than someone who actually lives in the community? I don't understand how requiring cops to live in, or demonstrate that they have lived in, a community limits the talent pool. Understanding of the community is key to doing the job lol.

lol I was thinking the same about you. It's bizarre that anyone thinks a cop can effectively police a city that they don't know. If your house gets robbed, you want a cop that knows all of the details of getting in and out of your neighborhood. If your house is on fire, you want someone driving the truck that knows your street grid like the back of your hand. It really is basic logic lol.

It's not like doctors have to be at the hospital 24/7 in order to be proficient at their jobs and to understand the needs of the patient population. A doctor does not forget how to work up, diagnose, and treat various conditions just because they went home and watched Netflix.

Likewise, a police officer or firefighter does not forget the streets they patrol on a daily basis just because they went home to a different city.