Urban? Suburban? - Page 5

Nite · #81 Posted **May 23, 2023, 12:47 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

Riverdale was annexed in 1884. If Riverdale is a "suburb", pretty much everything outside the downtown core is.

Yes that is what they were. Even today they are not as urban as the core of Toronto, they are more residential, less dense and less mix-use, they are just below the urbanity of the core, hence Sub-urban.

Simple put Streetcar suburbs were areas that were too far to walk to work that were made accessible by the creation and expansion of the streetcar network.
So most of the area just outside the present downtown of Toronto are streetcar suburbs. the former downtown of Toronto was much smaller than its present state though.

Docere · #82 Posted **May 23, 2023, 9:06 PM**

Segun · #83 Posted **May 27, 2023, 3:12 AM**

I might be the only one to see a West Coast resemblance in Toronto

A big road being the main thoroughfare of the city, frontier in the sunset.

Yonge is walkable Wilshire. Then again West is in the word Midwest.

Docere · #84 Posted **Feb 26, 2024, 9:36 PM**

Acajack · #85 Posted **Feb 26, 2024, 9:48 PM**

Westmount is a neighbourhood of central (almost downtown) Montreal that just happens to be its own municipality.

Docere · #86 Posted **Feb 26, 2024, 9:57 PM**

Its own municipality = hence Canada's most urban suburb. A suburb that's not suburban in character. It's a suburb in the sense that Valerie Plante is not your mayor if you live in Westmount, it's not "suburban" in terms of the lifestyle or urban form.

Westmount has a population of 20,000 and a density of around 12,000 per square mile.

Docere · #87 Posted **Feb 26, 2024, 10:04 PM**

Early 20th century "mansion districts" being intown (and retaining their status) is the norm in Canada. The rich didn't feel the need to move that far and/or they weren't that big enough a century ago to develop railroad suburbs. That's as true of Montreal as it as of Toronto.

bilbao58 · #88 Posted **Feb 26, 2024, 11:49 PM**

edited

Crawford · #89 Posted **Feb 27, 2024, 1:39 AM**

Westmount is kinda the Brookline of Canada? In-town, core-adjacent suburb, Jewish, academic, establishment, quiet rich.

Wigs · #90 Posted **Feb 27, 2024, 2:06 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

Early 20th century "mansion districts" being intown (and retaining their status) is the norm in Canada. The rich didn't feel the need to move that far and/or they weren't that big enough a century ago to develop railroad suburbs. That's as true of Montreal as it as of Toronto.

Buffalo was the same way and bucked the trend of many American cities where the wealthy emptied out of the city limits to the "prestigious" suburbs. The well-to-do city neighborhoods maintained their wealth.
It helped that the culturals, old money private social clubs, and highest rated private school (Nichols) stayed in the city limits.

Many large, stately, sometimes quirky homes in a variety of architectural styles from the 1880s-1930s sandwiched between Richmond Ave and Linwood Ave (usually between Elmwood and Delaware) north of the CBD to just north of Delaware Park.

Docere · #91 Posted **Feb 27, 2024, 5:39 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wigs

Buffalo was the same way and bucked the trend of many American cities where the wealthy emptied out of the city limits to the "prestigious" suburbs. The well-to-do city neighborhoods maintained their wealth.
It helped that the culturals, old money private social clubs, and highest rated private school (Nichols) stayed in the city limits.

Many large, stately, sometimes quirky homes in a variety of architectural styles from the 1880s-1930s sandwiched between Richmond Ave and Linwood Ave (usually between Elmwood and Delaware) north of the CBD to just north of Delaware Park.

Yes, while the wealth left Cleveland for suburbs like Shaker Heights a century ago, the wealth in Buffalo remained around Delaware Park in city limits.

Docere · #92 Posted **Feb 27, 2024, 5:47 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Westmount is kinda the Brookline of Canada? In-town, core-adjacent suburb, Jewish, academic, establishment, quiet rich.

Yes. And with a somewhat similar demographic and "vibe" to Toronto's intown favored quarter areas around Yonge and Avenue Rd. but with less urban intensification.

It's the community of Montreal's English-speaking establishment

Wigs · #93 Posted **Feb 27, 2024, 7:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

Yes, while the wealth left Cleveland for suburbs like Shaker Heights a century ago, the wealth in Buffalo remained around Delaware Park in city limits.

median housing price
City of Buffalo is ~$170,000
Erie County ~$240,000
~$750k USD is $1M Canadian.
I filtered by properties sold over $750k USD or 4.4x the city of Buffalo median housing price.

3rd&Brown · #94 Posted **Feb 27, 2024, 11:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

Yes, while the wealth left Cleveland for suburbs like Shaker Heights a century ago, the wealth in Buffalo remained around Delaware Park in city limits.

Is it either or though?

There's plenty of suburban wealth in Buffalo. Thinking of Amherst, Williamsville, etc. Maybe it never "left" the city, but plenty of people bypassed the city altogether I'm sure to move to these other places.

Wigs · #95 Posted **Feb 28, 2024, 1:06 AM**

In Buffalo-Niagara MSA, considering it's a small ~1.2M "rust belt" Metro, there are a smaller, but decent amount of people with money in the suburbs, along the lakefront, parts of Niagara county. In the enlarged Western NY region, there's also a cluster of wealth down in ski country near Ellicottville.

However if wealthy people don't live in the city proper they don't support city services that high valuation properties bring in through property taxes. That suburban exodus seen in many American cities harmed the city proper.

eschaton · #96 Posted **Feb 28, 2024, 3:14 AM**

I don't think it's really true that wealth never "left the city" in terms of Buffalo. There are a few middle-income census tracts in/around Elmwood Village and North Park, but these are still only areas with average household income in the $70k-$90k zone. That's better than what you see in Detroit or Cleveland, but that's not saying much.

The only rust-belt cities that kept substantive in-town wealth were Milwaukee (along the north lakeshore), Cincinnati (around Hyde Park), and Pittsburgh (large sections of the East End).

benp · #97 Posted **Feb 28, 2024, 5:38 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton

I don't think it's really true that wealth never "left the city" in terms of Buffalo. There are a few middle-income census tracts in/around Elmwood Village and North Park, but these are still only areas with average household income in the $70k-$90k zone. That's better than what you see in Detroit or Cleveland, but that's not saying much.

The only rust-belt cities that kept substantive in-town wealth were Milwaukee (along the north lakeshore), Cincinnati (around Hyde Park), and Pittsburgh (large sections of the East End).

The Census Tracts in Buffalo don't align well with income distribution, as they typically span across both low and high income areas.

However, by looking at the Census Block level, it shows that 18 out of the 259 income-measured Census Blocks, or 7%, had household income over $100k in Buffalo, though spread across 11 different Census Tracts. Another 5 Census Blocks exceeded $90k, so close to 9% of all city Census Blocks with measured incomes given are over $90k.

The highest income area is Tract 169 Block 1, population 1,497 and median income $149.9k, which spans from Elmwood Village to the Delaware District. Most of the high income Census Blocks follow the same alignment as high cost homes from downtown north to areas surrounding Delaware Park, but there are also a couple of Census Blocks in South Buffalo greater than $100k.

Antares41 · #98 Posted **Feb 28, 2024, 2:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by goat314

If there is grass and more than a couple trees most New Yorkers think they're on a farm.

Most Americans would definitely think this is an urban and rather dense neighborhood. Most Americans can't even walk to a corner store.

Yeah, that certainly was my perspective as a child. My mom would send us from the South Bronx to Jamaica Queens to stay with my aunt for the summer. All the trees and SFH with yards … that felt like the country to us... lol.

Wigs · #99 Posted **Feb 28, 2024, 8:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton

I don't think it's really true that wealth never "left the city" in terms of Buffalo.

The city of Buffalo is only a tiny 40 square miles (104.5 km2).
Pop. of ~277,000
Growing by an avg of 1,700/yr 2010-2020
(Erie county grew by an average of 3,500/yr).

Median housing price
$170k in the city of Buffalo
240k in Erie County

These homes are many multiples of the median price. $1M USD = $1.35M CAD

I'm sure Buffalonian forumer benp could tell you of the crazy bidding wars that have taken place in the city of Buffalo in the past few years.

My best friend was priced out of anything remotely desirable in the city (including fixer uppers) and had to enter a bidding war in the suburbs with 22 offers on a post war starter house bungalow and ended up paying around 23% over asking price.

Antares41 · #**100** Posted **Mar 1, 2024, 3:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wigs

The city of Buffalo is only a tiny 40 square miles (104.5 km2).
Pop. of ~277,000
Growing by an avg of 1,700/yr 2010-2020
(Erie county grew by an average of 3,500/yr).

Median housing price
$170k in the city of Buffalo
240k in Erie County

These homes are many multiples of the median price. $1M USD = $1.35M CAD

I'm sure Buffalonian forumer benp could tell you of the crazy bidding wars that have taken place in the city of Buffalo in the past few years.

My best friend was priced out of anything remotely desirable in the city (including fixer uppers) and had to enter a bidding war in the suburbs with 22 offers on a post war starter house bungalow and ended up paying around 23% over asking price.

I suspect the recent uptick in housing prices is largely due to outside investors buying up relatively inexpensive SFH in the Metro area for rental income. If I remember correctly the Buffalo Metro area has had relatively stable housing prices for at least a decade. This has attracted attention from outside the region, especially given the affordable housing deficit in this country. You won't get rich investing in real estate in the Buffalo area, but it is stable.