Bank Street Subway | Fantasy

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Attendance hasn’t been anywhere near capacity in 15 years.

https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attenda...h.php?tmi=7314

This doesn't discredit the fact that 67s occasionally hit that number with larger crowds. Looking at an average for a year will hide the highs and lows.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's been trending upwards up until the pandemic hit. The question is why did the numbers go down in the first place? The temporary move to Kanata didn't help. The now lack of parking could be an issue (though that's not effecting the RedBlacks, but maybe cold winters deter fans from taking the bus).

Lots can change in the next 20+ years. A Bank subway is about potential more than current conditions.

Teams were near the top of the CHL in the early 2000s. Ottawa has fair weather sports fans.

[Hybrid247]

Attendance was pretty good up until Lansdowne underwent redevelopment and the 67s were forced to play a few seasons in kanata. They haven't been able to get back to those numbers since, and I suspect the loss of parking at the stadium and the lack of practical alternatives for accessing events are largely to blame. A good rapid transit solution could be huge to help bring more game attendees and bring more liveliness to lansdowne in general.

Lansdowne is much more than just a venue for sports. It hosts plenty of events both inside and outside the stadium/arena, like food festivals and other events that use the horticulture building and adjacent outdoor spaces.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This doesn't discredit the fact that 67s occasionally hit that number with larger crowds. Looking at an average for a year will hide the highs and lows.

Of course, but you don’t size infrastructure for outlying events.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Of course, but you don’t size infrastructure for outlying events.

Wouldn't 67s games be more along the median (along with concerts, Atletico, rugby, basketball, or whatever else) with REDBLACKS games being the outlying events?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Wouldn't 67s games be more along the median (along with concerts, Atletico, rugby, basketball, or whatever else) with REDBLACKS games being the outlying events?

Yes, I would agree. 8 times a year there is an outlying attendance of 22-24k fans. The rest of the year a typical attendance at a sporting event is a few thousand. Every decade or so there is a Grey Cup, which is extra-outlying.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Teams were near the top of the CHL in the early 2000s. Ottawa has fair weather sports fans.

I'm calling bullsh*t on "Ottawa has fair weather sports fans". The 67's made the playoffs every year since the 2014-15 season and were top of the entire league for the last two seasons. The drop in attendance has nothing to do with being "fair weather" fans, because the weather has been fair the entire time.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

I'm calling bullsh*t on "Ottawa has fair weather sports fans". The 67's made the playoffs every year since the 2014-15 season and were top of the entire league for the last two seasons. The drop in attendance has nothing to do with being "fair weather" fans, because the weather has been fair the entire time.

All but four teams make the playoffs in the OHL, so making the playoffs isn't an indicator of being good. 67s were doing very well in the leadup and years before COVID, but the issue is that a lot of their legacy fans would prefer to drive and park at Lansdowne instead of using alternative means. 67s, like most other sports, were looking at ways of engaging 18-30 year olds to make the games more of an event. They were having some success until COVID came in and ended things. Most people I know who don't go to games at Lansdowne is because they can't park their giant, overly large SUVs and minivans on-site.

Would a subway/LRT help Lansdowne? Absolutely. Because it will be enabling more people in their target demographic to get on-site.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by JHikka

All but four teams make the playoffs in the OHL, so making the playoffs isn't an indicator of being good. 67s were doing very well in the leadup and years before COVID, but the issue is that a lot of their legacy fans would prefer to drive and park at Lansdowne instead of using alternative means. 67s, like most other sports, were looking at ways of engaging 18-30 year olds to make the games more of an event. They were having some success until COVID came in and ended things. Most people I know who don't go to games at Lansdowne is because they can't park their giant, overly large SUVs and minivans on-site.

Would a subway/LRT help Lansdowne? Absolutely. Because it will be enabling more people in their target demographic to get on-site.

There are also only 20 teams in the OHL. So yes, to have a proper 16 team tournament all but 4 teams make it. To make the playoffs even in the OHL you can't be terrible. So one couldn't argue that attendance dropped because the fans are "fair weather". Even with the drop they still have one of the higher attendance rates in the league.

100% a subway/LRT would help Lansdowne. More events, concerts, festivals, etc. would get booked as well.

[Clinton Desveaux]

Kwesi is at it again, with another one of his podcast/video discussing this subject. You can hear the passion in his voice - he discusses classism, elitism, and disdain people have for his community:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFQ...ature=youtu.be

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Clinton Desveaux

Kwesi is at it again, with another one of his podcast/video discussing this subject. You can hear the passion in his voice - he discusses classism, elitism, and disdain people have for his community:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFQ...ature=youtu.be

Although these are true societal issues, it's been debunked pretty hard as an argument for a Bank Street subway. Centretown, the Glebe and Old Ottawa South are largely high income areas. Billings Bridge and Alta Vista are already served by the S/E Transitway and will be served by the Baseline BRT (eventually).

That could be an argument for a Rideau-Montreal subway or the MIA Jasmine Crescent station of the Confederation Line.

[Nowhere]

I couldn't find anything more recent, but this is a transit ridership forecast map for the AM rush hour in 2031 made following the 2008 transportation master plan. Even if most of the ridership from the southeast transitway was moved to a Bank Street subway, we would still be extremely far from the ridership levels of the Confederation Line.

Even with new customers brought in by the better service, I doubt we could even reach the ridership levels of the Sheppard white elephant in Toronto.

You can see the map in high resolution in the following PDF.

[J.OT13]

We're not trying to reach Confederation Line type ridership levels, or even Confederation Line capacity. Confed is the spine for the entire east-west, with a few secondary bus lanes/BRT further south. A Bank subway would not have the same role.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We're not trying to reach Confederation Line type ridership levels, or even Confederation Line capacity. Confed is the spine for the entire east-west, with a few secondary bus lanes/BRT further south. A Bank subway would not have the same role.

Most of the Confederation Line is above ground, so I fail to see how we can justify burying a far less crowded line. I'm all for better transit into the core, but asking for such unrealistic projects is how we end up with nothing at all.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

Most of the Confederation Line is above ground, so I fail to see how we can justify burying a far less crowded line. I'm all for better transit into the core, but asking for such unrealistic projects is how we end up with nothing at all.

Using that logic, we could make the same argument in Vancouver. Most of the Expo and Millenium are above ground, so why is the Canada Line with its lower ridership below ground?

We build based on what's available, or not. For the Confederation Line (Expo and Millennium), there were plenty of existing RoW. That's not the case for Bank.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Using that logic, we could make the same argument in Vancouver. Most of the Expo and Millenium are above ground, so why is the Canada Line with its lower ridership below ground?

We build based on what's available, or not. For the Confederation Line (Expo and Millennium), there were plenty of existing RoW. That's not the case for Bank.

Pre-covid, the Canada Line had an average daily weekday ridership of 150 000, while OC Transpo as a whole had an average daily weekday ridership of 315 000. A Bank subway wouldn't get remotely close to the Canada Line ridership levels.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

Pre-covid, the Canada Line had an average daily weekday ridership of 150 000, while OC Transpo as a whole had an average daily weekday ridership of 315 000. A Bank subway wouldn't get remotely close to the Canada Line ridership levels.

Ridership on the Canada Line was 83,000 in September 2009. Bank subway detractors often use current numbers when comparing other lines, but we should be looking at initial ridership numbers when those lines opened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Line

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ridership on the Canada Line was 83,000 in September 2009. Bank subway detractors often use current numbers when comparing other lines, but we should be looking at initial ridership numbers when those lines opened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Line

The Canada Line caused a massive amount of transit oriented development, which will never happen in the Glebe or Old Ottawa South. A few extra subway stations isn't going to magically add over 100 000 daily riders to the OC Transpo network.

It might be needed after 2050, but Queen's Park and the Feds aren't going to agree to fund a Bank subway anytime soon.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

The Canada Line caused a massive amount of transit oriented development, which will never happen in the Glebe or Old Ottawa South. A few extra subway stations isn't going to magically add over 100 000 daily riders to the OC Transpo network.

It might be needed after 2050, but Queen's Park and the Feds aren't going to agree to fund a Bank subway anytime soon.

Who said anything about anytime soon?

Most of us have been saying 20-30 years.

There are plenty of TOD opportunities south of the Rideau River. Centretown (already subway level dense), the Glebe (close to subway dense + major sports and entertainment district) and Old Ottawa South (will never be subway dense, but still has solid density and good pedestrian/cycling connections) don't need TOD as they continue to densify naturally without the benefit of good transit, with parking lots, strip malls and single storey restaurants being replaced with mid-rise residential buildings.

[lrt's friend]

Nice to see a lively debate.

I will make a few points.

1. Which city builds a fairly high ridership tramway on a 4-lane street in the 21st century?

2. Which city more or less closes a 4.5 km arterial road to regular traffic? Where does the current traffic go? Bronson, which is at capacity during peak hours?

3. How will a low floor tramway ever integrate with the high floor Trillium Line? Does that not become a dead issue permanently? Nobody rebuilds transit lines from high floor to low floor.

4. Doesn't measures that speed up transit and traffic in general on Bank Street and I even include bus lanes, not create a more pedestrian hostile environment? The most pedestrian friendly streets have slow moving traffic.

5. Doesn't building a tramway permanently disallow a subway in the future? So, if the Bayview transfer becomes a problem, a Bank Street subway is out of the question. We aren't going to rebuild transit on Bank Street a second time.

6. How does a Bank Street subway require the closure of the Trillium Line? They would serve two completely different markets. The Trillium Line serves Carleton students number 1, and also as a downtown bypass from the south end. A Bank Street subway would serve local traffic and downtown commuters currently transferring at Hurdman.

7. Isn't the ideal to make Bank Street a complete street with wider sidewalks and cycle tracks? This is not compatible with efficient movement of buses, nor a tramway.

When we compare a Bank Street subway, a better comparison is the Eglinton Crosstown. It also faces a restricted roadway in more central areas, and surprise, surprise, that portion is going underground. Where the roadway is wider, it is running on the surface, which many Torontonians argue was a mistake. They believe it should have been elevated. Regardless, we do have a surface option south of Billings Bridge, namely the Southeast Transitway, which is the cheapest option to provide an airport connection without double transfers.

As a southend resident, would I use a Bank Street tramway? Maybe? But there is a further downside, as it would make event transit to Lansdowne more complicated if not impossible. Buses come from everywhere in the city to Lansdowne. A tramway would not be compatible. And with a tramway unlikely to be much faster or more reliable compared to a bus, I would likely still want to go downtown via Hurdman.

If it was a subway, I would likely go downtown more often and friends would likely meet me here or at the Greenboro Park n Ride. With the current transit set up, forget it. Double transfers are too unpredictable.

So, for me, it is a subway or nothing A tramway just doesn't deliver much.