Homicide stats in Canadian Cities

[thewave46]

Policing tends to be a reactive thing, not a proactive one.

So a huge increase in the police budget won't necessarily correlate to fewer violent crimes, because the cops just can't be everywhere at once. Sometimes they get lucky. Maybe it helps with the prosecution after the fact, but that's still just picking up the pieces.

There will have to be some sort of re-imagining of how we view/prevent long-term, deeply-ingrained, grinding poverty. A lot of cities rode the gentrification wave to displacing poverty and making more mixed neighbourhoods. That helped, because a mixed neighbourhood prevents such a concentration of poverty from forming. In some places, it also rode the wave too far, and either banished the poor away to another part of the city, or onto the streets permanently.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I don't look around this community and ever think to myself "man, if there's one problem with this place, it's that it's grossly overpoliced."

It's not that it's necessarily that the place is overpoliced, it's that the police can't solve all of society's problems. They're just cops - they're there to clean up the mess. They're not social workers, nor are they equipped to deal with the root causes behind crime.

But if police budgets have gone up in the past 6 years, while social service budgets have down, and crime rates have exploded - that to me suggests that maybe that maybe those services were helpful.

Throwing all your eggs into the police basket is like focusing only on hospitals when it comes to health care - they're an important ingredient, but they're not a one-size-fits-all solution, and if you're only focusing on acute care, then you're missing out on the equally important preventative care.

[Hecate]

Winnipeg has what? 2000 cops? All making a hundred grand a year plus after what three years on the job? There goes 200 million dollars. These are the highest paid police in the world. These wages and benefit packages are entirely unsustainable for a community in a province of 1.3 million people, most of whom are earning less than $35,000 a year. Cops should not be building $800,000 homes in Winnipeg, but they are. Across the board public servant wages in Canada are insane when you compare them to their international colleagues. Just imagine what paying 4000 cops $50,000 a year could accomplish. And if no Canadians want to work for those wages I’m sure there’s plenty of people in India and the Philippines who would be glad to fill those jobs. If they’re good enough for Tim Hortons it’s good enough for the WPS.

[biguc]

Interesting point, Hecate, and I think it's a good one. I couldn't come up with any numbers, but what you're proposing looks more like how they do policing in Europe. There's an abundance of young police on any scene--they're where they need to be, there's enough of them to control anything, and they keep each other accountable. And they aren't pseudo 1% types like you see lording it around Winnipeg

Common sense post, drew. If social media is any indication, the police are all using mini tanks to bash doors down in the North End. The WPS pretty obviously needs a big culture shakeup where they go back to doing the actual police work you mentioned, instead of playing with whatever big-ticket toys their runaway budget affords them.

Originally Posted by Luisito

No I don't drugs. Sorry to disappoint you. Personal attacks, what a good argument.

So what is your excuse?

Originally Posted by Luisito

So these services still exist?

If someone steals the rims from your car, your car still exists, but you can't very well drive it, can you?

Originally Posted by Luisito

Your profound ignorance and arrogance is why criminals feel justified in doing what they do. More and more excuses.

Amazing that you think I'm empowering criminals through something I'm not doing. I, for one, would never be so arrogant.

Originally Posted by Luisito

LOL If you think security on transit is a good idea, you're contradicting youself when you say more police presence wont solve anything, Yes increased Police presence(security) helps.

Maybe if I repeat my point enough times you'll actually read it.

Winnipeg already has an over-funded police force. Spending more on police won't solve anything.

You can make arguments about police presence all you want; I haven't once used the word "presence". I have talked about police funding. WPS and Winnipeg Transit are two different organizations with different budgets. Funding Winnipeg Transit to hire security--and security is not the same as police--is not the same as giving WPS more money with carte blanche to spend it on tanks or whatever bullshit they think they need.

Originally Posted by Luisito

You do. You just did several times.

It's pretty fantastic that you don't see a difference between causes and excuses. Fantastic in the sense that I can't believe what I'm reading. Your posts are like Smeagol goatse.

So, someone drinks while pregnant, hits their FAS kid growing up, keeps a revolving cast of shitheads coming around who abuse the kid, the kid has no impulse control so starts smoking meth, stealing, and assaulting people. There's a clear chain of causation there, and intervening as early as possible can interrupt it. We could fund, say, a women's shelter, which could take in that pregnant mother before she drinks her fetus stupid.

How in the fuck do you think that's making excuses? We intervene, there's nothing to excuse--there's no crime and no criminal. Instead we get a healthy member of society, who contributes and doesn't commit crimes.

We don't intervene, we get a bunch of badly broken people who do crime, we hold them responsible--as we should. We remove them from society for a while, eventually we let back in, they do more crime, we remove them from society for a while... Whatever they're doing they aren't healthy, productive members of society. It doesn't matter if we blame them for it, or get the police to fuck them up more.

[O-tacular]

This didn't result in a homicide thankfully, but wtf is going on with Calgary's C-train lately? A few weeks ago a woman was attacked with a hatchet at this same station. The video cuts it short but the flare gun was used a second time as well.

• Video Link

Every other week there's another random stabbing or assault it seems.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Kids with FAS? How about people don't drink while pregnant?? Just a thought. It's 2022 really no excuse for that. How the hell will increasing the police budget traumatize kids? Don't they deserve to have more security in their neighborhoods?

In your world, are children responsible for what their parents do to them? Before they're even born?

I feel sorry for anyone in your life, although I doubt there are many. You're not a good person and you're really, really stupid.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by biguc

In your world, are children responsible for what their parents do to them? Before they're even born?

No, they're not. The parents are 100% responsible.

Chidlren with FAS need proffesional help. Not "community organizations".

I feel sorry for anyone in your life, although I doubt there are many. You're not a good person and you're really, really stupid.

[/QUOTE]

I am not a good person? Yet i have not insulted you. Thanks for proving my point. Your insults say it all about you. You are an example of what many of us have to deal with in Winnipeg on a daily basis.

[O-tacular]

Reading the Winnipeg discussion it sounds like there's been increased violence on transit there too? I get your arguments biguc, and I agree that social services and mental health professionals should also be involved but there's something crazy going on since Covid that has led to an increase in violent crime and opioid addiction that's spilling out into the streets. I've mentioned it before but Calgary is seeing an insane increase in crime as well. See Flare Gun fight I just posted.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Reading the Winnipeg discussion it sounds like there's been increased violence on transit there too? I get your arguments biguc, and I agree that social services and mental health professionals should also be involved but there's something crazy going on since Covid that has led to an increase in violent crime and opioid addiction that's spilling out into the streets. I've mentioned it before but Calgary is seeing an insane increase in crime as well. See Flare Gun fight I just posted.

It's been happening way before covid in WInnipeg. Tranist workers have been regularly attacked for years now.


I think we all agree the roots causes of crime need to be addressed. But we also need short term solutions. People are fed up with this shit.

[niwell]

I think the point is that if police budgets are increasing (which they are) yet these problems are also increasing - does that not suggest another approach be taken? If having security on transit is an issue then address that directly, blanket increases clearly isn't solving much. Though I'm sure there would be pushback - a proposal here to use non-police for traffic direction was opposed vehemently by the TPS.

Not familiar with Winnipeg's budget in particular, but in Toronto the police budget is probably the only one with real year-on-year increases. Meanwhile the services that actually keep the city livable have seen freezes at best, and more often decreases.

As I said above, a large portion of my views on this are based on both what I've heard first hand from people (mostly staff at bars/restaurants) calling the cops, and actually speaking with acquaintances that are cops. The attitude they have towards "civilians" is not helping things.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by niwell

I think the point is that if police budgets are increasing (which they are) yet these problems are also increasing - does that not suggest another approach be taken? If having security on transit is an issue then address that directly, blanket increases clearly isn't solving much. Though I'm sure there would be pushback - a proposal here to use non-police for traffic direction was opposed vehemently by the TPS.

I agree. Thankfully in Calgary they're doing a pilot project now to dispatch mental health specialists in some cases before police. As for our transit problem hopefully the city looks at increasing transit security forces. The problem is system wide and not only concentrated in the core.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by niwell

I think the point is that if police budgets are increasing (which they are) yet these problems are also increasing - does that not suggest another approach be taken? If having security on transit is an issue then address that directly, blanket increases clearly isn't solving much. Though I'm sure there would be pushback - a proposal here to use non-police for traffic direction was opposed vehemently by the TPS.
.

Transit workers have been asking for police presence on buses for years. Some of the most vocal people against that are "community activist". On cbc radio they interviewed some one saying police presence will only increase targeting of "margenalized communities". No f***ks given about the safety of the drivers and passengers.....I recently posted a video of problems the Edmonton LRT is havng and we can hear a politician saying the exact same bullshit. So....nothing gets done. Even putting up fare gates at the LRT stops is viewed as discrimatory. SMH

Again I think we all agree the roots causes need to be addressed, we also need more security. People are asking for it.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Luisito

It's been happening way before covid in WInnipeg. Tranist workers have been regularly attacked for years now.

I think we all agree the roots causes of crime need to be addressed. But we also need short term solutions. People are fed up with this shit.

It's amazing to me that this is remotely controversial... there is crime and misbehavior all over the place, and people are getting mad at the cops? That's like getting mad at the janitor for coming in to clean up the barf mess that someone else made.

We are starting to approach "Emperor's New Clothes" territory with this stuff.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by niwell

Can't comment on Winnipeg but in Toronto the police seemingly do fuck all, and any interaction with them is beyond unpleasant (from the perspective of business / homeowners, not criminals). I know workers at bars who've called the police due to various incidents, including someone who came in off the street with a knife - usually they show up an hour later and berate staff for wasting their time. These service staff seem to be better at de-escalating that the professionals!

A huge part of police defunding or whatever you want to call it needs to focus on reform. Not talking about replacing all cops with social workers or whatever but that needs to be a component along with police who are more focused on community issues. Right now we have a bunch of people who think they are above the rest of society and increasingly look like a paramilitary force - that's a problem in my book. There probably is a place for that but it shouldn't be our only visual. I won't comment on the efficacy of police in Europe but they at least don't look as foreboding.

FWIW I know a few people in my extended circle who are cops and one-on-one conversations with them over drinks (at parties) has only soured my view. These are the types who originally joined to be a positive influence on the force as well. The stories about petty corruption were eye-opening.

This is my experience as well, both directly in dealing with the police and anecdotally through others.

It's astounding to me how poorly police are regulated as a profession, especially in Ontario given how regulated other professions are here. We ought to move to a model where prospective police officers are required to complete a degree/intensive vocational training* in the field, pass a comprehensive exam with written and practical components, and register with a regulatory college with the power to investigate and discipline members. Additionally, pay increases and career advancement should be tied more closely to additional training and specialization.

The lax educational requirements and seniority-first approach to pay increases/career advancement create a perverse environment where those who forgo meaningful postsec education have a built-in leg up over those who delay entering the field to study in a relevant field, making it one of the few professions in the province where less qualified high school grads make more than their better-educated cohorts (source).

*(We could also create a multi-tiered profession based on educational attainment as we have done with nurses (RN/RPN) and social workers (SW/SSW), among others)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I agree. Thankfully in Calgary they're doing a pilot project now to dispatch mental health specialists in some cases before police. As for our transit problem hopefully the city looks at increasing transit security forces. The problem is system wide and not only concentrated in the core.

This sounds like a good idea (I actually support it in principle at least) but it can be dangerous, as recently I believe two police officers who were also specialized in mental health were killed in incidents - one north of Toronto and one in the Vancouver area.

I wonder what social workers' unions think of this idea?

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's amazing to me that this is remotely controversial... there is crime and misbehavior all over the place, and people are getting mad at the cops? That's like getting mad at the janitor for coming in to clean up the barf mess that someone else made.

We are starting to approach "Emperor's New Clothes" territory with this stuff.

Yup. It's easier to blame some one else than put the blame where it belongs. It is easier to virtue signal and call others bad people and insult them. That is a major problem here in Winnipeg and why things will only keep getting worse.


It's ironic biguc is using a picture of Fidel Castro. I wonder if he knows how Cuba has dealt with poorly behaved people in the past? More than half the criminals in Winnipeg would be dead by now if we had a leader like fidel castro.....Or sent to the US, like Fidel sent thousands of criminals to Florida during the Mariel boat lift.

[Acajack]

I think it's possible and even logical to advocate for more and better social programs and interventions, and also more resourcing of police.

Winnipeg is not Detroit or Chicago but the situation there is concerning enough that I would not advocate cutting back on the latter to pay for the former - under the argument that there is only so much money to go around.

I am not aware of cities with crime problems that have cut back on police budgets and had good results, even if the money was redirected towards community programs.

What I've witnessed more is a spike crime where police budgets were cut, and then money quickly put back into policing.

[ssiguy]

Let's call a spade a spade here kids. The unfortunate truth is that Winnipeg is home to a disproportionately high Native population who are vastly more likely to both commit murders and be the victim of them. One thing all of our highest murder rate cities have in common is that they have large Native populations...........Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, Saskatoon, Regina, Edmonton and this is to say nothing of the astronomical rates on Native Reserves themselves.

Our Native peoples suffer from poverty, domestic violence, and drug/alcohol abuse. The latter is particularly harmful because not only does it help cause and perpetuate the previous two but also leads to the horrific conditions of Fetal Alcohol/Drug Syndrome. These issues must be tackled by governments and Native communities themselves because just throwing more money into policing will not solve the problem as Winnipeg can attest.

[Acajack]

One thing that often gets lost in these debates about policing is that it's people from minorities (Indigenous in Winnipeg's case) who are the biggest victims of crime. Young people (esp. males) and women geneally.

I don't think as a society we should be more concerned about not being sufficiently nice to minority group criminals, than about the safety of the people they victimize, who are from minorities as well.

[Luisito]

Even first nation communities are asking for more funding for their tribal police.

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