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  #861  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 2:05 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Given that most McDo's have kiosks these days you don't even need to talk to anyone. Order on the kiosk in English, grab your receipt, wait for your number to come up.
Yeah, good point. McDonald's has kiosks and pretty well every fast food joint has apps for ordering so human contact can be absolutely minimized!
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  #862  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
That said, I do think that the reality once you venture even a few hundred metres from the TCH service areas is probably hit and miss, and somewhere in between MonctonRad's extra-terrestrial experience and JHikka's "no problem everyone speaks English everywhere in the world!".
In fairness if you're at a fast food restaurant there is going to be an extremely limited range of things you're going to talk about with the staff and they'll be able to intuit what you're getting at. It's not as though you are likely to ask the kid behind the counter at Subway in broken French... "excusez moi, est-ce que humans ont free will?"

But yeah, once you get away from the highway then all bets are off.
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  #863  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 2:12 PM
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Yeah, good point. McDonald's has kiosks and pretty well every fast food joint has apps for ordering so human contact can be absolutely minimized!
This is a good point. Our hi-tech era has made it a lot easier than before to travel while interacting with people a lot less and this makes a big difference in places where one does not speak the language.

Another example is that before one had to either exchange with a gas pump jockey to fill your car, or at least with the person inside to tell them how much you wanted and which fuel grade.

Now I can fill my car without talking to anyone and even can get on-screen instructions in French anywhere in Canada, and even to some degree in the US I am pretty sure.

There are multiple situations like this that have become automated and personalized for us.
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  #864  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
In fairness if you're at a fast food restaurant there is going to be an extremely limited range of things you're going to talk about with the staff and they'll be able to intuit what you're getting at. It's not as though you are likely to ask the kid behind the counter at Subway in broken French... "excusez moi, est-ce que humans ont free will?"

But yeah, once you get away from the highway then all bets are off.
I suppose, though strangely enough this does not seem to work with French in fast food places in Ottawa...
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  #865  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 2:16 PM
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I suppose, though strangely enough this does not seem to work with French in fast food places in Ottawa...
Sadly Ottawa isn’t as bilingual as I think. It’s only in certain places.
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  #866  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 2:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Can't really dictate things like this.

One of the most popular Netflix series was Emily in Paris - an American moving to France to work in that city. That makes sense, right? Maybe this will increase the appeal of Paris, France, and French in English-speaking territories! Except the whole series is essentially American exceptionalism; Emily refuses to learn French and decides that French people are wrong and weird in everything they do.

Lupin did more for French and France, I guess, but these things don't really have a tangible impact in really making people want to learn the language. English will dominate.

Canadian programming should probably default be subtitled in both official languages similar to how a lot of Asian programs feature prominent subbing in multiple languages, but I doubt we have the workforce to make this available. re: French-language training, NB routinely recruits sub-standard teachers from Quebec because Canada's only bilingual province lacks French-language teachers. I doubt CBC can hire a multitude of people to ensure every program is subbed correctly.
If there aren't enough Canadians who know French available for the job, maybe Francophones from other parts of the world could be used for the task, whether through outsourcing or migration. Of course, this should only be resorted to if it is not possible to viably hire natives who know French.

But I really don't think this would be too hard to do. CBC could have an office in Montreal dedicated to the task.
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  #867  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 3:19 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Most places that graduate fully bilingual people are places where the second language is English and it is supported by it being the dominant global language for over a century. Twice as many Finns speak English as Swedish, for example, despite the latter being an official language that is required for many government jobs.

But even knowledge of non-dominant languages is usually much higher when compared to Anglophone Northern America.

For example, sources suggest 15% - 23% of people in the UK speak French, while only 9% of Anglophone Canadians do. And people in the UK do not really have as many practical incentives to learn French; for example, their public service doesn't have many positions reserved for people who know French and no region within their country is French-speaking.

And while more Finns speak English than Swedish, still 34% of them speak Swedish. Compared to 9%.

I'm not even talking about matching Quebec's ~40-50% bilingualism or exceeding that. But there's a very annoying close-mindedness I've noticed among Anglophone Northern Americans when it comes to learning other languages. Indeed, Canada has spent the bulk of its history trying to stamp out French.

But yes, I agree that the situation in the world re languages means that it will almost always be the case that more Quebecois will know English than Anglophone Canadians will know French, and that a lot of bilingualism across the world involves English. But 9% is pathetic.
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  #868  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 3:29 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I think at least some bilingualism among anglos who grew up in Ottawa is pretty high.

The problem is bilingualism in Canada largely follows a band that goes from about Hearst to Moncton, which is a fairly small section of the country to draw most of the public service from.
That's not a problem of bilingualism. The problem is close-minded monolingual Anglophone Canadians who refuse to learn the other official language of the country. It's not rocket science to learn one more language, especially one that is relatively similar to English (compared to other world languages like Arabic or Mandarin) and has practical use within the country and in other parts of the world.

It's also a moral hazard to appease Anglophone Canada and its staunch monolingualism when they played a significant role for many decades in stamping out Francophone minority communities in Anglophone Canada.
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  #869  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 4:11 AM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
But even knowledge of non-dominant languages is usually much higher when compared to Anglophone Northern America.

For example, sources suggest 15% - 23% of people in the UK speak French, while only 9% of Anglophone Canadians do. And people in the UK do not really have as many practical incentives to learn French; for example, their public service doesn't have many positions reserved for people who know French and no region within their country is French-speaking.

And while more Finns speak English than Swedish, still 34% of them speak Swedish. Compared to 9%.

I'm not even talking about matching Quebec's ~40-50% bilingualism or exceeding that. But there's a very annoying close-mindedness I've noticed among Anglophone Northern Americans when it comes to learning other languages. Indeed, Canada has spent the bulk of its history trying to stamp out French.

But yes, I agree that the situation in the world re languages means that it will almost always be the case that more Quebecois will know English than Anglophone Canadians will know French, and that a lot of bilingualism across the world involves English. But 9% is pathetic.
Thanks for the honest, sensible post. People always fall over themselves with excuses and justifications but the bottom line is that it's a huge collective failing.

That's probably why it's so touchy.
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  #870  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
That's not a problem of bilingualism. The problem is close-minded monolingual Anglophone Canadians who refuse to learn the other official language of the country. It's not rocket science to learn one more language, especially one that is relatively similar to English (compared to other world languages like Arabic or Mandarin) and has practical use within the country and in other parts of the world.

It's also a moral hazard to appease Anglophone Canada and its staunch monolingualism when they played a significant role for many decades in stamping out Francophone minority communities in Anglophone Canada.
It might not be rocket science, but it is not particularly easy for a normal person. Most people who speak other languages well learned them as children, either from family or their surrounding community, or in some cases they have a very high aptitude for languages (and usually music). For people without that aptitude or exposure as children it is very rare to achieve a high level of fluency.
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  #871  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
But even knowledge of non-dominant languages is usually much higher when compared to Anglophone Northern America.

For example, sources suggest 15% - 23% of people in the UK speak French, while only 9% of Anglophone Canadians do. And people in the UK do not really have as many practical incentives to learn French; for example, their public service doesn't have many positions reserved for people who know French and no region within their country is French-speaking.

And while more Finns speak English than Swedish, still 34% of them speak Swedish. Compared to 9%.

I'm not even talking about matching Quebec's ~40-50% bilingualism or exceeding that. But there's a very annoying close-mindedness I've noticed among Anglophone Northern Americans when it comes to learning other languages. Indeed, Canada has spent the bulk of its history trying to stamp out French.

But yes, I agree that the situation in the world re languages means that it will almost always be the case that more Quebecois will know English than Anglophone Canadians will know French, and that a lot of bilingualism across the world involves English. But 9% is pathetic.
Finnish did not become an official language in Finland until 1923 and Swedish was the language of government, tertiary education and business until well into the 20th century, so there is probably a fair bit of legacy Swedish in Finland that has no equivalent in English Canada.
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  #872  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
For example, sources suggest 15% - 23% of people in the UK speak French, while only 9% of Anglophone Canadians do.
I have not been able to find a source to corroborate that. It sounds a bit fishy... I suspect the "level" of French they'd claim to know would be the same as what every anglophone Canadian would be at after taking regular French classes through primary-middle-high school... I don't imagine they speak it in the home at all.
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  #873  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 2:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Vorkuta View Post
I have not been able to find a source to corroborate that. It sounds a bit fishy... I suspect the "level" of French they'd claim to know would be the same as what every anglophone Canadian would be at after taking regular French classes through primary-middle-high school... I don't imagine they speak it in the home at all.
I'd imagine so as well. If anything I find anglo-Canadians tend to downplay their French skills (myself included) which becomes apparent when you're in a francophone environment. While I'm very, very far from having passable conversational French, I do know enough of the basics to muddle my way through basic requests etc. simply based on what I've learned in school and seeing written French daily. But if asked I would say I don't speak French and don't consider this to be real knowledge of the language. Doubt I'm alone on this one.

Disclaimer: this isn't a justification for the knowledge of French amongst anglo-Canadians!
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  #874  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 2:14 PM
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I'd imagine so as well. If anything I find anglo-Canadians tend to downplay their French skills (myself included) which becomes apparent when you're in a francophone environment. While I'm very, very far from having passable conversational French, I do know enough of the basics to muddle my way through basic requests etc. simply based on what I've learned in school and seeing written French daily. But if asked I would say I don't speak French and don't consider this to be real knowledge of the language. Doubt I'm alone on this one.

Disclaimer: this isn't a justification for the knowledge of French amongst anglo-Canadians!
It requires no justification. It simply reflects Canadian reality. Likewise wrt those Canadians who speak only French.
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  #875  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 4:58 PM
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I agree with much of what has been said here about the apparent lack of eagerness of so-called "English Canadians" to learn another language, but I will point out another part of the issue.
I live in Edmonton, supposedly a part of English Canada. I see from the Census Profile from the 2016 Census of Canada that pretty near a full third of the folks hereabouts speak languages other than English as their mother tongues. Of the other two thirds at least some speak other languages and I am sure that in total at least 40 percent of us speak more than one language.
There is nothing new about this; it has always been this way. There does not seem to me that there is much institutionalized distinction between Anglophone and Allophone as there seems to be elsewhere. Unfortunately I risk offending some by suggesting that the French language is not given the priority among non English languages that others feel it deserves. I am sorry.
In short I agree that many of us do not study other languages as we ought. However, we might not be as badly off as we think.
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  #876  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
For example, sources suggest 15% - 23% of people in the UK speak French, while only 9% of Anglophone Canadians do. And people in the UK do not really have as many practical incentives to learn French; for example, their public service doesn't have many positions reserved for people who know French and no region within their country is French-speaking.
As others have noted, those statistics for the UK look questionable, but I would think that Brits have a far greater motivation to learn at least some French than Anglo Canadians do simply for when holidaying in France.

What percentage of Canadians desire jobs in the public service where being bilingual is needed?* What percentage of Canadians outside of Quebec take vacations there?

Clearly those proportions, and raw figures, would be exponentially lower than for Brits taking pleasure trips to France, which is right next door. While Spain is famously the number one destination for the British going abroad, the vast majority of tourists on two-week package holidays to "Little England" enclaves don't need to know any Spanish.

*For that matter, what percentage of public service jobs outside of Quebec require it? And for that matter, what percentage of jobs in Quebec require it?
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  #877  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 7:26 PM
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In SK/AB/BC nobody speaks French and in BC way more people speak Mandarin.

In Ontario and AC, few Anglophones are bilingual because there is no point except in NB. That said, being officially bilingual and having a decent understanding of the language are 2 different things. The vast majority of people in Ont/AC under 40 {except new immigrants} can speak enough French to comfortably spend the weekend in Montreal or Quebec City. They may not be bilingual but neither is it a "foreign" language.
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  #878  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 7:43 PM
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In SK/AB/BC nobody speaks French and in BC way more people speak Mandarin.

In Ontario and AC, few Anglophones are bilingual because there is no point except in NB. That said, being officially bilingual and having a decent understanding of the language are 2 different things. The vast majority of people in Ont/AC under 40 {except new immigrants} can speak enough French to comfortably spend the weekend in Montreal or Quebec City. They may not be bilingual but neither is it a "foreign" language.
I went to high school in Vancouver in the 90s. At the time nearly everyone was required to learn some basic French. Can most people make it through a weekend in Quebec city? Probably. Are they fluent in French? No.
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  #879  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 8:02 PM
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I went to high school in Vancouver in the 90s. At the time nearly everyone was required to learn some basic French. Can most people make it through a weekend in Quebec city? Probably. Are they fluent in French? No.
You don't need to know French in Quebec City if you're a tourist.
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  #880  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2021, 8:07 PM
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Certainly in NS there's a fairly large concentration of bilingual jobs, not just in the public sector but also in the private sector (think banks and other Canada-wide businesses). In practice these jobs seem to go to roughly 1/3 Canadian Francophones/Allophones, 1/3 Immigrants who are fluent in both French and English, and 1/3 "FI Kids". There's enough of a critical mass of people who speak French here that while it's never really "needed" to get by day-to-day, those jobs exist, and they pay better than monolingual equivalents.

Although I also get the impression that most of that "stuff" within Canada is concentrated roughly between Halifax and Ottawa (with maybe Winnipeg and parts of N. Ontario thrown in) and that, as others have mentioned, these opportunities don't really exist to the same extent in the ROC.
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