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  #121  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2010, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JSsocal View Post
You mean on top of madison square garden, (but 2 Penn plaza survives apparently). For that proposal were they going to move madison square garden over to the Farley post office?
Yep. Demolishing 2 Penn was never the plan. It was to be incorporated into a ginormous podium that supported the towers. A reclad was considered, though.
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  #122  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2010, 7:19 PM
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Madison Square Garden wil eventually be demolished, and giant towers will eventually be built.

The site has 6 million square feet of unused air rights.

And I would guess it would happen sooner rather than later. The Garden was going to move back during the economic boom, but that canceled the move in favor of a temporary renovation.

Only problem is that the renovation costs have exploded, and now they're not sure what to do. I would guess they will sell the site, and use the proceeds to finance a new MSG.

And if/when they do sell, everyone knows the buyers. It will be Vornado, which already controls all the surrounding buildings, and had the twin-tower proposal (both taller than the Empire State Building).

I would imagine that something similar will eventually be built on the MSG site.
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  #123  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2010, 2:32 AM
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Originally Posted by OneWorldTradeCenter View Post
WOW, what is that tall building with the spire??? How tall is it??? It looks much more taller than the ESB.
More on that here...
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=163351




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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Madison Square Garden wil eventually be demolished, and giant towers will eventually be built.

The site has 6 million square feet of unused air rights.

And I would guess it would happen sooner rather than later. The Garden was going to move back during the economic boom, but that canceled the move in favor of a temporary renovation.

Only problem is that the renovation costs have exploded, and now they're not sure what to do. I would guess they will sell the site, and use the proceeds to finance a new MSG.
Yeah, I always had my doubts about that renovation, the seriousness of it. I remember the plans to put a new MSG on 9th Ave, the other side of the Farley (Moynihan Station)...




But even before MSG started talking renovation, Related dropped its plans for what it called a Time Warner Center on a "much larger" scale, in favor for just a large shopping mall on the MSG site (though it did open up Penn Station to light again)...

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  #124  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2010, 8:23 PM
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Wow, that looks great, so those renovations above ^^^ are cancelled?
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  #125  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2010, 8:30 PM
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I think the best thing would be that when MSG goes, take Two Penn Plaza with it. It's an ugly and relatively small building. If the tenants complain, give them incentives to move to whatever goes up on the site.

Ah, it's built on top of Pennsylvania Station itself? Great....
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  #126  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2010, 10:02 PM
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^^^Perhaps short in height, but it’s a massive building. All it would need is a facelift to visually bring it into the 21st Century. That I don’t doubt happening in the not so distant future once things get rolling in the area.
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  #127  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 5:22 AM
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Originally Posted by evanmack View Post
Wow, that looks great, so those renovations above ^^^ are cancelled?
Those aren't renovations.

It's one of two options for the MSG site.

One would replace MSG with two massive towers, each taller than the ESB.

The second option (shown in the illustration) would be to replace MSG with a surface-level Penn Station (including huge shopping concourse), and then to shift the six million square feet of air rights to adjacent sites (you see some renderings of potential towers on adjacent sites).

So, if MSG ever moves, Vornado will likely buy the site, and will have two options. They initially preferred the two supertalls, but then said that it was too difficult to build while Penn Station was in full operation, so Vornado then preferred the second (air rights) option.

Whatever option that one day occurs, this area will get 6 million square feet of new commercial space. I hope it's in two supertalls, but we will have to wait and see.
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  #128  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 5:24 AM
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Originally Posted by meh_cd View Post
I think the best thing would be that when MSG goes, take Two Penn Plaza with it. It's an ugly and relatively small building...
Two Penn Plaza is huge and isn't going anywhere.

It has 1.6 million square feet of leasable office space, which means it's about 25% bigger than Comcast Center in Philly, for comparison.

Now maybe it will be reskinned, but it definitely isn't going anywhere.
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  #129  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Two Penn Plaza is huge and isn't going anywhere.

It has 1.6 million square feet of leasable office space, which means it's about 25% bigger than Comcast Center in Philly, for comparison.

Now maybe it will be reskinned, but it definitely isn't going anywhere.
Unfortunately, it's not going anywhere. They're going to "modify" the base of 1 Penn Plaza to put up a building of 900 to 1,200 ft (probably more like 1,000 ft), and likely reclad and renovate 1 Penn Plaza. Madison Square Garden is the "elephant" or "gorilla" in the room. First they were moving, then they weren't, now maybe...either way, Bloomberg said they are losing the tax breaks they get on the arena. Are they really going to sit by and watch every major sports team in the NY-NJ area get new stadiums and arenas, and let the world's most famous arena retain it's dumpy appearance? If the Knicks and Rangers are any indication, probably so...

But at the very least, there will be two massive towers rising up accross the street from 2 Penn Plaza. Moynihan Station is coming (really). The Manhattan West towers will eventually be built to the west. And beyond that, the Hudson Yards.
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  #130  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 4:48 PM
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A blast from the past regarding the redevelopment of the area...
http://archrecord.construction.com/n...ennstation.asp

Quote:
SOM, Foster, and KPF to Remake Penn Station

July 16, 2007
by Russell Fortmeyer


Skidmore Owings & Merrill (SOM), Foster + Partners, and Kohn Pedersen Fox (KPF) have been retained as architects for a multi-billion-dollar-project to redevelop New York City’s Pennsylvania Station district, parties close to the deal confirmed on Friday.

Bud Perrone, a spokesperson for the project’s developers, a joint venture of the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust, acknowledged that the three architecture firms are involved. Another source involved in the design of the project told RECORD that Foster will prepare the master plan for a site that includes the existing Penn Station, Madison Square Garden (MSG), and two office towers, One and Two Penn Plazas. This plan calls for razing MSG and capping the subterranean train station with a large glass dome.

Errol Cockfield, a spokesperson for the Empire State Development Corporation (ESDC)—the state agency involved in organizing development between private and public interests—confirmed much of the project’s scope. The redevelopment plans include SOM’s previously announced transformation of the Farley Post Office, which the ESDC purchased in March at the southwest corner of 33rd Street and 8th Avenue, into a new Moynihan Station that would augment Penn’s existing—and at-capacity—infrastructure. Cockfield says that the low-rise podium of One Penn would likely be razed, but that the tower would remain and that Two Penn would only be re-skinned. (RECORD’s offices happen to be located in Two Penn Plaza.)

Cockfield says that the ESDC has yet to assemble a timetable for making the designs public, or for the phases of development, but he did say that a scoping session would occur before summer’s end. This session will establish the amount of square footage that the development might contain and prepare rudimentary drawings for how it will be divided. “Some of this is still in flux and people want answers and there is frustration in some corners,” Cockfield says. However, other sources tell RECORD that environmental review hearings are expected to begin this fall. A draft Environmental Impact Statement was completed for the Moynihan project in 2006.

In recent years, the site has been the subject of much speculation. A source involved in the design of the redevelopment has told RECORD that Two Penn Plaza would also be razed to allow for wholesale redevelopment of the area. Planned new structures might include 5.5-million-square-feet of retail, restaurant, hotel, and office space designed by SOM. Additionally, for a site at the corner of 34th Street and 7th Avenue, KPF would design a 2-million-square-foot skyscraper that will be taller than the Empire State Building, located just two blocks away.

Separately, plans were announced last winter for the destruction of McKim Mead & White’s 1918 Pennsylvania Hotel, located at the northeast corner of 32nd Street and 7th Avenue, to make room for a hotel tower to be designed by Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects and developed by Vornado. That building’s demolition will leave only the Farley building as the last vestige of the celebrated architects’ legacy in the Penn Station district.
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Quote:
Developers To Detail $14B Plans Around Penn Station

By ELIOT BROWN
June 14, 2007

A plan for building a set of towering skyscrapers, two grandly scaled train halls, and a new Madison Square Garden around the existing Pennsylvania Station are rapidly advancing, and the state hopes to begin the public review process for the project, known as Moynihan Station, in the next few weeks.

The developers' revised designs, which are said to include a pair of towers taller than the Empire State Building to be built on the current site of Madison Square Garden, could swiftly transform Midtown South into a thriving epicenter of commercial activity centered around one of the largest transit hubs in the country.

The proposals, which could cost more than $14 billion including the private development, are being shown to elected officials and community groups by a joint development team, Vornado Realty Trust and the Related Companies.

While the developers had publicly discussed their vision for the comprehensive plan about a year ago, the concept is now refined, more specific, and closer to reality, people familiar with the plans said, and come after a spider web of discussions among the numerous stakeholders that has gone on for months.

People familiar with the designs say they call for a complex containing 5.5 million square feet built on what is now Madison Square Garden. Primarily office buildings, it includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet. Another tower, to be built along Seventh Avenue near One Penn Plaza, would utilize 2 million square feet of developable air rights transferred from the Farley Post Office site.

Under the plans, the existing Pennsylvania Station would be reconfigured to allow natural light into the train hall, which is now buried under low ceilings.

"The whole place will be flooded with daylight," the president of the developers' Moynihan Station Venture team, Vishaan Chakrabarti, said. He called it "a dramatically nicer space that, again, is larger than the main room at Grand Central."
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Last edited by NYguy; Feb 16, 2010 at 4:58 PM.
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  #131  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 1:02 AM
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Meanwhile, Moynihan slowly begins to stir...

http://www.observer.com/2010/real-es...2%80%94so-what

Moynihan Bags $83 M. in Stimulus Change—So What?



By Eliot Brown
February 16, 2010

Quote:
With a push by the Paterson administration and elected officials, particularly Senator Chuck Schumer, the effort was an apparent success: The Obama administration was slated to announce on Wednesday an award of $83 million in stimulus funding for the project, according to Mr. Schumer. The money is a big lift for the project-known as Moynihan Station in honor of major backer Daniel Patrick Moynihan-and had the state lost its bid for the funding, officials involved feared it would kill the dreams for an expanded station, at least for the foreseeable future. But with the money now coming, it clears the path for something that has never occurred in its tortuous history: construction.

...All is not to say that a shiny new train hall is about to become a reality. With the project always collapsing under its own ambition, the state and Port Authority in 2009 restructured it into "bite-size chunks," in the words of one official, and the stimulus money is going toward just the first phase, $267 million in infrastructure work that would build new entrances along Eighth Avenue and expand an underground concourse on the western end of Penn Station's platforms.

Taken in isolation, this first phase does not seem a project worth the significant money being devoted to it, and now the concern becomes whether the second phase will indeed ever happen. Private developers the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust-a partnership between which once planned a far grander scheme that involved moving Madison Square Garden-still say they are interested, and Amtrak has signed an agreement to move to the Farley Building, should a train hall be built.
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Moynihan Station gets $83M in stimulus buck

By Theresa Agovino

Quote:
The perennially delayed plan to transform New York City's main post office into a transportation hub got a boost Tuesday when Sen. Charles Schumer announced an $83.2 million federal grant to jumpstart the project.

...The federal grant means there is now enough money to start the first phase, which will cost about $220 million and take five to six years to complete. It includes expanding access to the various train tracks, creating two new entrances to the Farley building, and adding elevators, stairs and escalators.

“We've got the money now let's get to work,” said Mr. Schumer, in a statement. “The best way to get New York's economy moving again is to keep building, and the best project to get things started is Moynihan Station.”

The second phase, which is expected to cost between $1.5 billion and $2 billion, calls for renovating Farley and adding the retail space and creating the grand hall.
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  #132  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 2:07 AM
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I suppose that it's not terribly unlikely that the rest of the money to finish phase I will pop up during the anticipated timeline. I just find it funny that $83 million is enough to start a project that will ultimately cost several billion.
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  #133  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 3:42 PM
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I suppose that it's not terribly unlikely that the rest of the money to finish phase I will pop up during the anticipated timeline. I just find it funny that $83 million is enough to start a project that will ultimately cost several billion.
It's just added to the pot for the first phase...

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/f...kk2ajx9on8q3VN

Quote:
Sidetracked for nearly four years, an ambitious plan to convert the Farley Post Office into a train station named after Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan got a jump-start yesterday when the federal government kicked in $83.3 million in stimulus funds to put the project back on track.

The funding gives the state the $267 million it needs to begin Moynihan Station's first phase, which will create new access to rail platforms beneath the post office and expanded rail facilities in Penn Station across the street.

Construction will begin later this year and is expected to be completed by 2015. The project will create about 400 construction jobs annually.

As many as 13 new stairways and escalators and six new elevators will help speed passengers to and from trains both in the western end of Penn Station and to new platforms under the post-office building.

Two new entrances at the corners of the post office, at 31st and 33rd streets on the west side of Eighth Avenue, will be the first direct link to the new Moynihan Station, which will primarily serve Amtrak, but will also provide access to the Long Island Rail Road and NJ Transit.

A second, larger project that will create an enormous train hall inside the post-office building -- complete with retail shops, restaurants and, possibly, a hotel -- will come later.

A date hasn't been set for the second phase, but it is expected to cost $1.5 billion to $2 billion.
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  #134  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 3:36 AM
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Why on earth is the city planning to tear down a heritage building just to erect a glass box.
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  #135  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 3:50 AM
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Why on earth is the city planning to tear down a heritage building just to erect a glass box.
The city isn't planning to tear down anything. The developer who owns the site plans to put up office space on what is currently a dump on life support.

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  #136  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 4:13 AM
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The city isn't planning to tear down anything. The developer who owns the site plans to put up office space on what is currently a dump on life support.
I don't have any particular love for the Hotel Pennsylvania, but to call for tearing down a building because some bums are sleeping in a subway entrance that happens to be in it is really a stretch. This is the same type of logic that has been used to needlessly tear down many historic buildings in this city: "it's old, it's dirty, it's run-down, it's blight"... Yes, the Hotel Pennsylvania is run down - would you invest in remodeling it if you were planning on tearing it down? If for some reason the LPC reversed their earlier decision and decided to landmark it, you can bet the owner would make a go of renovating it to get as much revenue out of it as he could. Grand Central was run-down and dirty until it was renovated and now it's considered one of the jewels of the city. If we tore down every historic building that some landlord decided to not maintain, then we'd have a far, far less interesting city.
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  #137  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 6:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Hed Kandi View Post
Why on earth is the city planning to tear down a heritage building just to erect a glass box.
It isn't a heritage building, and there's no official design, so you're wrong on both counts.

And the City doesn't own the site nor make decisions about the site, so no idea what that means.
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  #138  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 6:20 AM
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Originally Posted by KVNBKLYN View Post
Grand Central was run-down and dirty until it was renovated and now it's considered one of the jewels of the city. If we tore down every historic building that some landlord decided to not maintain, then we'd have a far, far less interesting city.
You can't seriously be comparing the Pennsylvania Hotel to Grand Central?

And if you really love the Pennsylvania Hotel so much, you will be relieved to know that there are hundreds of almost identical prewars as this on every street in this part of Midtown.

There probably are 10 prewars for every modern building in this part of town.

So, if you want interesting, it would seem to be to be more exciting to add some variety to the district by adding new buildings, rather than have everything look the exact same.
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  #139  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by KVNBKLYN View Post
I don't have any particular love for the Hotel Pennsylvania, but to call for tearing down a building because some bums are sleeping in a subway entrance that happens to be in it is really a stretch.
Well, obviously they aren't tearing down the hotel because bums are sleeping in a subway entrance.

But there is a lesson apparently you and a lot of other people need to learn. Just being old doesn't make a building landmark worthy. Neither does being large, which the hotel is both of.


Quote:
If for some reason the LPC reversed their earlier decision and decided to landmark it, you can bet the owner would make a go of renovating it to get as much revenue out of it as he could. Grand Central was run-down and dirty until it was renovated and now it's considered one of the jewels of the city. If we tore down every historic building that some landlord decided to not maintain, then we'd have a far, far less interesting city.
They are currently getting as much money out of is as they can, which is why the hotel is still open. And as stated above, this building is in no way comparible to Grand Central, which is a one of the key portals into the city. But more importantly, if we were to choke the natural flow of the lifeline of the city, corporate expansion in the business districts, then you wouldn't have a "far less interesting city", you'd have a dead one. Much as people some people would prefer to differ, Manhattan is not a living museum, and sometimes buildings get knocked down for newer ones. And although New York is "older" in a sense than some of the relatively new developed American cities, it's no "old world" city.

This one stood on the site of the Empire State...


http://thisaintthesummeroflove.blogs...1_archive.html
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  #140  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 7:01 PM
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Why even entertain the notion of preserving a structure which adds absolutely no value to the area? The city is moving forward, embrace it.
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