PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This narrative is exhausting.

Do you know who's leaving Philadelphia at a faster rate (by choice) of any demographic group?

Black people. The middle class black population of Philadelphia is plummeting. They're moving to Atlanta (and the south in general), Delaware, and the suburbs. It has (almost) nothing to do with gentrification and nearly everything to do with a city that can't execute even basic services.

No one is "switching" anyone anywhere in Philadelphia.

There's room for all of us.

People also don’t realize how difficult it is to escape the “hood mentality” without leaving the city. These divisions run very deep and addressing the unaddressed trauma that exists in these communities is so important. When you grow up in an environment where carrying a gun is a way of life and you’ve lost friends from gun violence and know who did it, affordable housing isn’t going to stop the violence.

But yeah to your point I completely agree. No one is intentionally switching anyone. We all want the neighborhood to be safe and vibrant.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

This is probably one of the more controversial things I will say: but all those articles about "how making Washington Ave. safe will ruin the neighborhood" or the "Fishtown Security" article you mention exposes the fact that a lot of the left's "culture" at it's core is nearly as rotten as the rights. Or maybe not "rotten" in the way the GOP is vindictively evil, but in an anti-intellectual way that people can't diagnose the problems in front of their nose because their so poisoned by outside forces blinding reality of what's important or what it even means to be a good citizen.

I could not agree more.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

I could not agree more.

Also agree. I think it has a lot to do with the FAR left and the FAR right. The progressive left and the MAGA right.

Far left and far right politics seem to be taking over. Moderates on both sides are losing their voices. I would classify myself as moderate left and find myself rolling my eyes just as hard at progressive left POVs like the many completely pointless Inquirer articles mentioned, just as I would roll my eyes at the far MAGA right abortion is murder, gays can't marry, cities are evil and guns should have more rights than women and gays in America POVs.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I agree 1000% with you 3rd&Brown.

Excellent points from you and everyone. People on this forum should run for office!

And NYC kept it going with Blumberg too.

[Phillyguy215]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Also agree. I think it has a lot to do with the FAR left and the FAR right. The progressive left and the MAGA right.

Far left and far right politics seem to be taking over. Moderates on both sides are losing their voices. I would classify myself as moderate left and find myself rolling my eyes just as hard at progressive left POVs like the many completely pointless Inquirer articles mentioned, just as I would roll my eyes at the far MAGA right abortion is murder, gays can't marry, cities are evil and guns should have more rights than women and gays in America POVs.

I’m moderate right? Idk. I don’t have a preferred political party. I just want everyone to be happy and I still want my guns, preferably without any infringement's( I am personally biased on this due to my oath to uphold and defend it). I want my wife to be able to have an abortion, I want my wife to be seen equil to me, as I’ve seen from her and others how still not equal women are in this country., I want my trans friend to be able to marry his gf, and feel safe just being them in pubic anywhere they go. I want the police in America to do their job properly without killing the first minority they see, (I don’t understand how cops state side fear for their life, but Rules of Engagement overseas during GWOT were not whatsoever in your favor when I was in((especially as a infantrymen)) I personally hate maga right, and far left(I’ve lost a lot of friends by not liking trump/biden) both seem to be the only spectrum one can be and I 100000000% agree that we are losing our voices. Moment someone finds out i love guns and I support gay people, people lose their shit on me. Our countries political system and social system is in complete disarray. I find reading these forums to be probably the most non toxic place/probably most positive place on the internet.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I agree 1000% with you 3rd&Brown. I could write a book to you about how I believe it got the way it did, but all it really comes down to is this: The city of Philadelphia has been fucked up for a very very long time. Long enough that the bare minimum level of service in a first-world community is not met and the so-called "leaders" who have been in charge for so long are so rotted to their core, that they can't figure out which way is up.

That's why I personally have got a lot more critical and angry in the last few years. The city has been flush with money because of an unexpected (and frankly undeserved) increase in tax revenues due to the city reviving by itself. Where has these hundreds of millions of dollars been going? According to the city controller, NO ONE FUCKING KNOWS and there are no controls in place to even get a handle on it.

This is probably one of the more controversial things I will say: but all those articles about "how making Washington Ave. safe will ruin the neighborhood" or the "Fishtown Security" article you mention exposes the fact that a lot of the left's "culture" at it's core is nearly as rotten as the rights. Or maybe not "rotten" in the way the GOP is vindictively evil, but in an anti-intellectual way that people can't diagnose the problems in front of their nose because their so poisoned by outside forces blinding reality of what's important or what it even means to be a good citizen.

Philly never had it's 'Rudy G'-mayor. As much of a scumbag he turned out to be, he forced real change to clean the city and make it more business friendly and successful again. We almost had our moment with Sam Katz. But instead we got the great shame of John Street.

Originally Posted by Phillyguy215

I’m moderate right? Idk. I don’t have a preferred political party. I just want everyone to be happy and I still want my guns, preferably without any infringement's( I am personally biased on this due to my oath to uphold and defend it). I want my wife to be able to have an abortion, I want my wife to be seen equil to me, as I’ve seen from her and others how still not equal women are in this country., I want my trans friend to be able to marry his gf, and feel safe just being them in pubic anywhere they go. I want the police in America to do their job properly without killing the first minority they see, (I don’t understand how cops state side fear for their life, but Rules of Engagement overseas during GWOT were not whatsoever in your favor when I was in((especially as a infantrymen)) I personally hate maga right, and far left(I’ve lost a lot of friends by not liking trump/biden) both seem to be the only spectrum one can be and I 100000000% agree that we are losing our voices. Moment someone finds out i love guns and I support gay people, people lose their shit on me. Our countries political system and social system is in complete disarray. I find reading these forums to be probably the most non toxic place/probably most positive place on the internet.

This is really the only philly “news” I consume anymore. Everything else just increases my anxiety unnecessarily and seems to devolve into a echo chamber for self-pity (e.g., r/philly). As to the politics, we’ve (the U.S.) really been screwed by the first-past-the-post voting system and the two-party system that it’s entrenched. In modern European democracies there would be a party that aligns more with your worldview and you wouldn’t be forced to decide whether you want fascism if you elect a Republican (ala Mastriano) or to accept laws/policies you disagree with if you elect a Democrat.

[Skyscraper.Phanatic]

I think anyone moving to Atlanta is in for a big surprise. they have many of the sme crime issues as Philly or Chicago. Crime is spread out there and you must be careful even in Bukhead one of the nicer areas of the city. In fact leaders in Buckhead want to form a new city and actually support their police officers.

[Knight Hospitaller]

I come here to get away from depressing political/social news. Oh well. :-)

[iheartphilly]

^
lol...there's always tomorrow.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Phillyguy215

I personally hate maga right, and far left(I’ve lost a lot of friends by not liking trump/biden) both seem to be the only spectrum one can be and I 100000000% agree that we are losing our voices. Moment someone finds out i love guns and I support gay people, people lose their shit on me.

Not to get into the weeds on this but it’s funny how the people who have admitted to being gay on here (including myself) seem to be either moderate or right of center lol. I think there’s a growing trend amongst gay people where we have more nuanced views on things based on our own individual experiences. The red necks waiting outside gays bars with shotguns really don’t exist anymore. And I’ve been to quite of few of them in my life

I know this is very off topic but just an observation on my end.

[Jerryiz]

As a native Philadelphian I appreciate being able to read and look and try to understand all of the posts that I see about Philly living. I haven't lived in Philly in probably 30 or so years but I definitely still care about the city and it's Citizens. I see both sides of the argument in regards to QOL issues. I grew up on 54th and Addison St where my mother still lives, right around the corner from the 18th Police District. I think the big difference comes to the core of these blocks or neighborhoods. For example my mother's block Captain and neighborhood watch has an active Block that participates in things because we have known each other for most of our lives. As the parents die off or move and hand their homes off to their children or their children's children, the culture and the feel of these blocks and neighborhoods start to change. I no longer know everyone on my Mother's Block and the surrounding blocks and that's what has changed. Not saying that all the new neighbors are bad, but most new neighbors don't come from the same "community" based approach as we had growing up. I am 53 years old now, my mother is 87 and lives alone. I never used to worry about her because I knew between my family and my friends and neighbors living down there, that they would look out for her. I have lost that sense of security. I hope the city continues to grow and prosper and I wish I had the answers but I do not. I just try to be optimistic.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I come here to get away from depressing political/social news. Oh well. :-)

well, let's talk about taxes

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Not to get into the weeds on this but it’s funny how the people who have admitted to being gay on here (including myself) seem to be either moderate or right of center lol. I think there’s a growing trend amongst gay people where we have more nuanced views on things based on our own individual experiences. The red necks waiting outside gays bars with shotguns really don’t exist anymore. And I’ve been to quite of few of them in my life

I know this is very off topic but just an observation on my end.

Funny? That's called white priviledge.

Anyways. The fascists will come for you first. Don't get too smug.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Jerryiz

As a native Philadelphian I appreciate being able to read and look and try to understand all of the posts that I see about Philly living. I haven't lived in Philly in probably 30 or so years but I definitely still care about the city and it's Citizens. I see both sides of the argument in regards to QOL issues. I grew up on 54th and Addison St where my mother still lives, right around the corner from the 18th Police District. I think the big difference comes to the core of these blocks or neighborhoods. For example my mother's block Captain and neighborhood watch has an active Block that participates in things because we have known each other for most of our lives. As the parents die off or move and hand their homes off to their children or their children's children, the culture and the feel of these blocks and neighborhoods start to change. I no longer know everyone on my Mother's Block and the surrounding blocks and that's what has changed. Not saying that all the new neighbors are bad, but most new neighbors don't come from the same "community" based approach as we had growing up. I am 53 years old now, my mother is 87 and lives alone. I never used to worry about her because I knew between my family and my friends and neighbors living down there, that they would look out for her. I have lost that sense of security. I hope the city continues to grow and prosper and I wish I had the answers but I do not. I just try to be optimistic.

Nice Jerryiz! Thanks for post. We always need more opinions and views to expand and challenge our own. I imagine the story of your mother is not unique. My mom-mom's sister has been an LGBT woman in West Philadelphia for decades and with everything going on, I know my mom has been reaching out to her aunt more often. Only a handful blocks east of 54th is turning over for the better for sure.

Originally Posted by Skyscraper.Phanatic

I think anyone moving to Atlanta is in for a big surprise. they have many of the sme crime issues as Philly or Chicago. Crime is spread out there and you must be careful even in Bukhead one of the nicer areas of the city. In fact leaders in Buckhead want to form a new city and actually support their police officers.

The only other place I have lived is in NC. I made good friend there who was going to NC State for Grad school at the time. He got a job out of school at Home Depot's HQ. He hated it. Just driving around everywhere. He decided to take an interview with a data science company in Center City on a whim because they were willing to fly him here for an interview. He's getting married, owns a house in south philly, and is philly-stan now lol.

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I come here to get away from depressing political/social news. Oh well. :-)

I admittedly got us off track there a bit, but to be clear: we only started this conversation because someone is building some houses and condos at 17th and Tioga. Which is a good thing and a sign of positive change. More people care about what's going on in the city than has been the case for a very long time, so sorry if it came off as depressing.

[justremember]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

The middle class black population of Philadelphia is plummeting. They're moving to Atlanta (and the south in general), Delaware, and the suburbs.

This why, even though I’ve been reading this forum for nearly two decades, I comment rarely. And TempleGuy1000, I think your right that 3rd&Brown and I probably overlap in our views a lot more than is apparent (again, probably due to my not saying much here).

1. Can we please not lump all Black people together. The people I’m talking about are not the ones moving to Atlanta.

2. I intentionally didn’t use the words “Black” or “gentrification” because I didn’t want to distract from my main point: you can improve a neighborhood by addressing the problems of the people who live in the neighborhood or by filling the neighborhood with people who don’t have those problems. The latter can (but don’t necessarily always) push out that first group. I was commending the effort to try the former strategy.

The people being targeted by this plan aren’t the ones with the ability’s to just pick up and move to greener pastures in Atlanta or anywhere else. That’s why the investment is needed.

3. I’m not anti new people moving into a struggling neighborhood. I’m not anti development. I’m definitely not a NIMBY. But on this forum I sometimes get the “rearranging the furniture” vibe - making a neighborhood better by changing who lives in it. Sometimes among people like “us” who are drawn to a space like this, there’s a temptation to think “we need this optimally located neighborhood to be better and for the greater good, the people who live her now can find another suitable place to live, and everyone willing benefit.” Which brings me to…

4. If we move people around but don’t invest in addressing core issues, we’ll continue to be plagued with problems like violence, poverty, struggling schools, etc. - the things we keep identifying as hindering our city’s growth. There’s definitely room for all of us, but all of us being together necessitates investment in all of us, especially those who have been historically marginalized and divested from.

All I did was applaud someone of taking the “invest in the people” approach. But it got spun into an “exhaustive narrative” about “gentrification.” I love this forum but sometimes there’s this kind of undercurrent that’s really off-putting to “normal(?)” people who would otherwise be in favor of the general direction of conversation here.

The attitude that gets projected feeds directly into the mindset that makes Darrell Clarke’s ridiculous Girard Avenue overlay possible. Y’all are right 90% of the time, and I’ve learned a ton here. But if you want to see change, development-oriented people gotta stop recklessly taking in ways that alienate large chunks of the city (i.e. voters) and start talking in ways that help people see their place on our vision of a better city.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Also agree. I think it has a lot to do with the FAR left and the FAR right. The progressive left and the MAGA right.

Far left and far right politics seem to be taking over. Moderates on both sides are losing their voices. I would classify myself as moderate left and find myself rolling my eyes just as hard at progressive left POVs like the many completely pointless Inquirer articles mentioned, just as I would roll my eyes at the far MAGA right abortion is murder, gays can't marry, cities are evil and guns should have more rights than women and gays in America POVs.

I agree that the far right and the far left are both batshit. The important difference is that while the far left may be very vocal, the vast majority of Democrats are comparatively moderate. The Republican party, however, has been entirely taken over by the far right, once considered its fringe.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Not to get into the weeds on this but it’s funny how the people who have admitted to being gay on here (including myself) seem to be either moderate or right of center lol. I think there’s a growing trend amongst gay people where we have more nuanced views on things based on our own individual experiences. The red necks waiting outside gays bars with shotguns really don’t exist anymore. And I’ve been to quite of few of them in my life

I know this is very off topic but just an observation on my end.

Maybe not shot guns, but homophobia, transphobia, and drag-phobia are very much alive, and feel worse in recent years. See the recent debacle in West Chester. Outfest was cancelled due to homophobic backlash. The West Chester Republican Committee pushed for the cancellation and in their next breath invited Doug Mastriano to town for a meet & greet.

I'm proud the community rallied and went on with a smaller event anyway, but more as a march/protest and less as a celebration. Getting back to the roots of what pride stood for...

I don't like the nonsense on both sides, but Justin7 brought up a great point that the right has been completely take over by lunacy, and I'll add hate and discrimination. The left has it's nuts, but it's less severe and I think some of the extreme rhetoric (from 2020) has subsided a bit, thankfully.

And from my perspective (as a gay man), I could never align with a party that doesn't view me as an equal, even if I have moderate views on other topics. The sad reality of our political system.

But of course I am still thankful to live in a time of general acceptance and people can finally be who they want to be / who they are, but let's not take that for granted!

My two cents.

[thoughtcriminal]

Why is this a discussion? I thought we weren't supposed to be talking politics on these boards.
Can we get back to discussing skyscrapers please.

[Phillyguy215]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Why is this a discussion? I thought we weren't supposed to be talking politics on these boards.
Can we get back to discussing skyscrapers please.

Yes! Let’s talk about toll brothers hole in jewelers row.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Phillyguy215

Yes! Let’s talk about toll brothers hole in jewelers row.

Or the hole on Walnut Street. And that reminds me of the other fire hole at 3rd & Chestnut (technically low-rise).

I also brought up some questions in the Low Rise thread about some pending developments, but no one responded.