PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

The property taxes in Texas are very high. Like notoriously high approaching NJ levels.

I can confirm, as I looked at property in Dallas and had some friends move there and coworkers there and I was blown away by the numbers, as "it's cheaper" was the mantra for a while. Yeah, at the time comparable houses were certainly cheaper but when you factored in the property taxes, wow.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Raja

Interesting, but doesn't this rank gross tax revenues per capita, rather than average tax rates? Of course we'll rank lower on revenues, given our low median wage. When people refer to a tax "burden," they generally are referring instead to the rate.

Some of the cities ranking higher than Philadelphia are not high income cities. It explains that a lot of the rankings ignore county taxes in cities that are not counties. Saying taxes are high in a vacuum means nothing, its all relative to what is being paid in other cities.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by summersm343

It's the tax rate that's too high for businesses primarily, but the wage tax needs to be lowered to 2% as well for residents. A lot of it is also just restructuring the WAY business and people are taxed.

They should lower the wage tax to 2% and SLIGHTLY bump up residential property tax rates.

They should eliminate the BIRT tax and use and occupancy tax and increase property taxes on commercial properties.

I understand a lot of this has to do with the State of PA and their restricting of ability to tax residential and commercial properties at different rates... but I digress.

All in all, of course we would have the lowest tax revenue generated than the other cities ahead of us. Our median household income is much lower than all the other cities ahead of us.

2% wage tax rate of a median household income of $80,000 is $1,600 a year.
3.8% wage tax rate of a median houseshold income of $40,000 is $1,520.

So therefore, the city with the lower tax rate is still generating more tax revenue because it's attracting business that generate high earning jobs. That's pretty much economics 101... I know this is a major struggle to understand for much of our political regime in City Hall... and again, I know a lot of this has to do with the state as well.

They are laying out how much tax revenue is generated per person in a city and not every city above Philadelphia is a high income city. Even in places like NYC the median income is far more modest than what you would expect considering the cost of living. Part of the argument about the taxes is that Philadelphia is collecting way more money than is necessary to effectively run a city of this size- this analysis shows that logic is flawed. And saying that the low median income in Philly "proves" that our rates are much higher is nonsense- a lot of the taxes paid to Philadelphia are paid by tourists, suburbanites and corporations. So you really need to look at the median income of the taxpayer based across the board, including tens of thousands of higher income non city residents.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by cardeza

They are laying out how much tax revenue is generated per person in a city and not every city above Philadelphia is a high income city. Even in places like NYC the median income is far more modest than what you would expect considering the cost of living. Part of the argument about the taxes is that Philadelphia is collecting way more money than is necessary to effectively run a city of this size- this analysis shows that logic is flawed. And saying that the low median income in Philly "proves" that our rates are much higher is nonsense- a lot of the taxes paid to Philadelphia are paid by tourists, suburbanites and corporations. So you really need to look at the median income of the taxpayer based across the board, including tens of thousands of higher income non city residents.

I think then part of the issue is where these tax dollars are going. What is the city providing me by taking my money? For instance, if I go to Bryn Mawr instead, I'll have cleaner streets and less crime.

Obviously I am not of that line of thinking, but certainly others have used similar logic to justify leaving the city for the 'burbs. They might even end up paying more taxes in Montco, but they feel as if though they're at least getting their money's worth.

We've discussed city services on here ad nauseam, but certainly if the city could get things like street sweeping, more efficient garbage collection, and even better, public transit, you'd probably see a lot less whining about taxes.

I would discuss what I saw this past weekend in another larger city to our north, but I might draw the ire of some other posters on this forum in doing so. Therefore, all I'll say is: Philly needs to fund public transit and parks.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I would discuss what I saw this past weekend in another larger city to our north, but I might draw the ire of some other posters on this forum in doing so. Therefore, all I'll say is: Philly needs to fund public transit and parks.

If you're going to bring it up, don't hold back!

Having lived happily car free in both large US cities to the north I absolutely agree Philadelphia needs to heavily invest in public transit.

I'm more interested on your take regarding parks though. Philly obviously doesn't have a large central green like the Common/Public Garden, and nothing can touch Central Park, but that's more a result "ancient" city planning. Otherwise I think Philly's park game is pretty good considering it's relative wealth and we are seeing some heavy investment with the Penn's Landing cap and FDR and further down the line with the Parkway.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Justin7

If you're going to bring it up, don't hold back!

Having lived happily car free in both large US cities to the north I absolutely agree Philadelphia needs to heavily invest in public transit.

I'm more interested on your take regarding parks though. Philly obviously doesn't have a large central green like the Common/Public Garden, and nothing can touch Central Park, but that's more a result "ancient" city planning. Otherwise I think Philly's park game is pretty good considering it's relative wealth and we are seeing some heavy investment with the Penn's Landing cap and FDR and further down the line with the Parkway.

Our parks are generally good, but we need more of them, and the ones in Center City need some love (mainly Logan, Franklin, and the Parkway). And I am reserving any judgement on the Parkway redesign until I see it happen (although, to tie it into the earlier discussion, I was very disappointed to not see any discussion of rail transit along either the Parkway or along the City Branch).

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by cardeza

They are laying out how much tax revenue is generated per person in a city and not every city above Philadelphia is a high income city. Even in places like NYC the median income is far more modest than what you would expect considering the cost of living. Part of the argument about the taxes is that Philadelphia is collecting way more money than is necessary to effectively run a city of this size- this analysis shows that logic is flawed. And saying that the low median income in Philly "proves" that our rates are much higher is nonsense- a lot of the taxes paid to Philadelphia are paid by tourists, suburbanites and corporations. So you really need to look at the median income of the taxpayer based across the board, including tens of thousands of higher income non city residents.

I generally agree that Philly's tax "burden" tends to be overblown from time to time... however, even you can't deny that some taxes (primarily wage tax) are just simply too high in the city.

A lot of it though also has to do with the WAY things are taxed. Shifting taxes off things that CAN move (people and businesses) and onto things that CAN'T move (property) will go a long way.

For residents - reducing the wage tax to 2% and bumping the residential property tax a smidge would go a long way.

For business - eliminating the BIRT and U&O taxes entirely and bumping up commercial property taxes to accommodate for the loses there will also help tremendously.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Justin7

If you're going to bring it up, don't hold back!

Having lived happily car free in both large US cities to the north I absolutely agree Philadelphia needs to heavily invest in public transit.

I'm more interested on your take regarding parks though. Philly obviously doesn't have a large central green like the Common/Public Garden, and nothing can touch Central Park, but that's more a result "ancient" city planning. Otherwise I think Philly's park game is pretty good considering it's relative wealth and we are seeing some heavy investment with the Penn's Landing cap and FDR and further down the line with the Parkway.

I generally agree that parks in Philadelphia are generally good or great... but there is still work to be done in a lot of areas too.

Comments on some parks:

Logan Square/Circle - they need to do a better job of keeping the sidewalks paved and intact and ensure they're not crumbling. They also need to move the homeless along in the park.

Franklin Park - needs TLC

The Parkway needs work and I know that's coming as well.

Rittenhouse Square - need to keep the grass growing and move along the homeless. Otherwise, Rittenhouse is beautiful.

FDR Park needs a complete redo, and I know that's coming... it will hopefully turn out great.

Fairmount Park is our equivalent to Central Park, and honestly, it's very disappointing to see it in it's current state. There are parts of Fairmount Park that are absolutely stunningly beautiful.... but there are other parts that are crumbling and need a lot of help. I know Fairmount Park is getting piecemeal investment here and there... but there are large swaths of the park that need help. Some suggestions for Fairmount:

1. The city needs to make sure all sidewalks and paved paths through the park are constantly paved and intact and not crumbling. There are some parts of the park where sidewalks and pedestrian walkways no longer exist, and there are only roads for cars to drive on. This is frankly unacceptable.

2. The city needs to do a better job of litter/trash and debris cleanup throughout Fairmount Park.

3. The city needs to do a better job of graffiti cleanup throughout Fairmount Park.

4. The entire area behind the Art Museum (Azalea Garden, Water Works, Fountain of Seahorses, Boathouse Row) is quite lovely. There needs to be a pedestrian crossing at Lemon Hill Drive though.

5. The area around the Emmanuel Philips Samuel Memorial needs TLC. There's no excuse for those fountains to be sitting in their current state. If it's too much money for the city to get them back up and running again, then turn them into planter beds and plant flowers and plants in them.

6. The Glendinning Rock Garden is beautiful, but there needs to be pedestrian crossings across Kelly Drive right here, and there needs to be better pedestrian paths and walkways/sidewalks along Brewery Hill Drive that connect back up to Girard Ave.

7. The entirety of the Lemon Hill area needs redone.

8. 33rd Street bridges and streets/sidewalks need redone.

9. The new Discovery Center at the East Park Reservoir is lovely, but the rest of the area around the Reservoir, Reservoir Drive, Smith Memorial Playhouse, Mount Pleasant Mansion and Ormiston Mansion needs a lot of TLC, new walkways paved, etc.

10. The pedestrian crossing across Kelly Drive from the Schuylkill River Trail to Fountain Green Drive needs redone, and the entire pedestrian walkway/sidewalk up Fountain Green Drive needs redone.

11. The entire area around the Fairmount Park Athletic fields and Edgely Field and Laurel Hill Mansion needs redone.

12. The entire area around Woodford Mansion, Historic Strawberry Mansion and the Dell Music Center needs redone.

13. The rest of Kelly Drive/Schuylkill River trail is in generally good shape but just needs TLC here and there, as well as debris, trash and graffiti cleanup.

14. On the flipside of the River, MLK Drive tends to be in pretty good shape overall, but needs TLC here and there... primarily once you get closer to Center City.

15. The Zoo is lovely, but the area around the zoo on Girard Ave needs some TLC, and Lansdowne Drive and Sweetbriar Drive need a lot of TLC.

16. The parts of West Fairmount Park along Parkside are quite lovely now that they redid that entire stretch, but the areas around the Smith Memorial Arch, the John Welsh Memorial Fountain and the Carousel House need a lot of work. The Concourse Lake is also quite lovely and of course the Please Touch Museum is stunning.

17. The pedestrian trails and paths that run past Sweetbriar Mansion and Cedar Grove are quite lovely, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for there to be no pedestrian paths/walkways along Black Road to connect up with MLK Drive.

18. The entire area around the Japanese Shofuso House and the Horticultural Center/Centennial Arboretum is breathtakingly beautiful. The pedestrian walkway passed the Shofuso house needs to be better delineated from the road though, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for that chain link fence on the one end of the Centennial Arboretum, and for this fence and Belmont Ave to cut the Centennial Arboretum in half. They need to remove the fence and create pedestrian crossings across Belmont Ave to continue the Centennial Arboretum to the other side of Belmont Ave. The cherry blossoms here in the spring should absolutely rival those in Washington DC.

19. The entire area around Centennial Lake, Abstinence Fountain, the Mann Music Center and the Ohio House needs a lot of work.

20. The entire area around Belmont Plateau and Belmont Mansion needs works..... and the entire stretch along Montgomery Drive connect West Fairmount Park to MLK drive needs a lot of work.

So yes, I believe Philly tends to do a pretty good job with parks, but the ones that most glaringly need help at the moment are FDR Park and Fairmount Park. Both of these parks are big attractions, and should be so much more well taken care of.

[mcgrath618]

The Smith Memorial Arch is in abysmal condition. Needs a deep cleaning, and the streetlamps/sidewalks need to be replace.

That chainlink fence also angers me. Fairmount Park is amazing but it could be so much more. Belmont Avenue might even be worthy of a road diet in that area.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

That chainlink fence also angers me. Fairmount Park is amazing but it could be so much more. Belmont Avenue might even be worthy of a road diet in that area.

Yes!! I think this every year at the cherry blossom festival. It's clear that the line of cherries crosses the street and continues down there. It would be so nice if you could cross there. All they would technically need is a traffic light that's button-activated for pedestrians. Less highway-like conditions would be great too or at least speed bumps if a pedestrian crossing was added.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

That chainlink fence also angers me. Fairmount Park is amazing but it could be so much more. Belmont Avenue might even be worthy of a road diet in that area.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I'm still thankful that the City Hall portals have proper gates now and that those chain link fences are gone.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by summersm343

6. The Glendinning Rock Garden is beautiful, but there needs to be pedestrian crossings across Kelly Drive right here, and there needs to be better pedestrian paths and walkways/sidewalks along Brewery Hill Drive that connect back up to Girard Ave.

I cannot begin to tell you how much this has annoyed me over the years. As a runner and former resident of Fairmount, I would often use Brewery Hill Drive to descend to Kelly Drive from Girard Ave. Once you reach the bottom, you have to play Frogger to access the trail. There should definitely be a pedestrian crossing there.

I'll also add something else: the steps on the southern end of the Girard Avenue Bridge need to be redone. They provide great access to the trail that runs behind Lemon Hill, but they're in disrepair and covered in graffiti.

[Vince_]

I agree the general state of 70% of Fairmount park is just not sufficient. There's trash everywhere in the woods. Whenever I bring my dog I have to lift him over broken glass on sidewalks. You're definitely right that Glendinning Rock Garden needs a crosswalk and traffic light. Also trying to cross from the Frank Furness staircase and entryway is a disaster. It took me 20 minutes to cross Kelly Drive here:



The staircase and archway are really cool but you cannot cross safely from where it leaves you. https://hiddencityphila.org/2012/10/...rocess-begins/

Philadelphia should have an annual music festival in Fairmount Park that raises money / awareness for the park. Ideally the main stage would be at Belmont Plateau but I could see Mann Center as more realistic with travel logistics. Outside Lands is a huge boost for San Francisco every year. The city should really look into generating more money through events/restaurants/beer gardens in Fairmount Park. It sucks to rent out public area but I just don't see how they can maintain stuff otherwise. Parks on tap was definitely a great idea but I'd like to see some more permanent options.

[iheartphilly]

The area around the Horticulture Center and adjacent bldg and the reflecting pools that is adjacent to Shofusu could use a little love, but having the annual Japanese Cherry Festival there with live music was nice. They should do more events inside the park and make improvements with more plants and drainage. I've ruined a few pairs of nice shoes when the ground was ever so saturated.

[summersm343]

After FDR Park and the Parkway redos are underway.... I would really like to the see the make a concerted push and effort for an Fairmount Park redo. That really needs to be the next step.

After the I-95 cap park... I would really like to see a concerted effort from the city and any other parties involved for a Vine Street expressway cap.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by summersm343

After FDR Park and the Parkway redos are underway.... I would really like to the see the make a concerted push and effort for an FDR Park redo. That really needs to be the next step.

After the I-95 cap park... I would really like to see a concerted effort from the city and any other parties involved for a Vine Street expressway cap.

Might've misspoke there. What park do you mean?

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Might've misspoke there. What park do you mean?

Here's What the First, $50M Phase of FDR Park's Redesign Will Look Like
The 348-acre park in South Philadelphia was designed by the Olmsted Brothers in 1914 and opened in 1921

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...-like/2983820/

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by PHL10

Here's What the First, $50M Phase of FDR Park's Redesign Will Look Like
The 348-acre park in South Philadelphia was designed by the Olmsted Brothers in 1914 and opened in 1921

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...-like/2983820/

No, I know what FDR is, I just think he mistyped. In his original post he said that he thought that FDR should get renovated after... FDR is renovated?

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

The area around the Horticulture Center and adjacent bldg and the reflecting pools that is adjacent to Shofusu could use a little love, but having the annual Japanese Cherry Festival there with live music was nice. They should do more events inside the park and make improvements with more plants and drainage. I've ruined a few pairs of nice shoes when the ground was ever so saturated.

I went to the PSU Master Gardeners plant sale yesterday (not worthwhile, imo but that's aside the point)...4 of the 5 fountains in the pool were on. I can't recall that before but perhaps I'm misremembering.

Nothing beats Shofuso this time of year (pic from '21)

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

No, I know what FDR is, I just think he mistyped. In his original post he said that he thought that FDR should get renovated after... FDR is renovated?

Sorry! Definitely a typo. I meant once FDR Park redo is underway then I would like to see a concerted effort and push by the city to redo FAIRMOUNT PARK.... LOL