Winnipeg Construction X

[Labroco]

Originally Posted by Jeff

So I clearly don't know all the details, but hearing about the rush to build a new National Research Council building in Montreal to handle a made-in-Canada vaccine makes me wonder if this city didn't even try to land this type of thing or whether it is Trudeau playing to his Montreal base again. I just say this because we have two empty NRC buildings (Ellice @ Balmoral and the one on Lag. beside the Mint) and the national Virology lab here already. Seems like Winnipeg coulda played some part in all of this....

I absolutely agree!

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by Labroco

I absolutely agree!

Maybe someone should suggest this to JT and maybe we'll get product sometime before September. And then double/triple production once all are up and running. Win, win.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Jeff

So I clearly don't know all the details, but hearing about the rush to build a new National Research Council building in Montreal to handle a made-in-Canada vaccine makes me wonder if this city didn't even try to land this type of thing or whether it is Trudeau playing to his Montreal base again. I just say this because we have two empty NRC buildings (Ellice @ Balmoral and the one on Lag. beside the Mint) and the national Virology lab here already. Seems like Winnipeg coulda played some part in all of this....

None of those buildings are pharmaceutical manufacturing facilities. You would be better off with an empty field and building from scratch than you would be trying to retrofit those buildings.

They are strictly research facilities.

[plrh]

Does anyone know anything about that pharmaceutical plant in Steinbach? Is it even still in business? It looks like a pretty big place, but I sure don't hear anything about it.

[3de14eec6a]

Originally Posted by plrh

Does anyone know anything about that pharmaceutical plant in Steinbach? Is it even still in business? It looks like a pretty big place, but I sure don't hear anything about it.

Biovail->Valeant is still definitely running. But they're definitely not set up for manufacturing vaccines. (from a biochemist that used to work there)

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

I could understand CoryB's sentiment if the construction downtown was leading to boarded up old office buildings, but that isn't something I see happening.

We just got three boarded up downtown office buildings off the market, Avenue, Dreman and the one at Smith and Portage that did a residential conversion. We also have Body and Hudson Bay, and the building at Donald and Portage with Dollar Tree on the ground level. While the later isn't fully offline it might as well be as there is very little in there. Further, you would be hard pressed to find a tower outside of Portage and Main or True North Square without an extremely low-rent non-profit agency taking up space that is barely paying the operating costs. And then many of those same buildings have at least one floor that is mostly or completely empty.

It is almost as if people that post here sit in their office in the suburbs and never venture downtown. Granted over the last year I haven't been there much myself but people on this forum sure have rose coloured glasses on when they look around downtown as they seem to miss an awful lot of details. I get it, some are working in designing buildings, etc and don't make money off existing spaces. If we want a healthy downtown we need to see it all though, the good and the bad or we could go back to the days with everything between Donald and Fort effectively boarded up and closed. That isn't the sort of downtown progress I want to see happening again.

[Jeff]

with downtown currently suffering particularly hard, would an aggressive downtown-specific business tax cut be a smart tool to employ to stem some of the backslide?

[H2man]

Originally Posted by Labroco

My real complaint is the tens of millions of dollars of subsidies to build TN. I believe almost $30,000,000 for this great “public square” which isn’t really public at all... Some say a small price to pay for a $400,000,000 investment but remember they are not paying realty taxes for a generation.

This creates the government subsidized poaching from other property owners and stakeholder. Do I like TN? Yes... Does it come at a huge subliminal price? Yes again...

Isn't the $30,000,000 just forgone revenue that we otherwise wouldn't have gotten anyway if the project never happened? Or in these TIF types of programs are we literally writing cheques?

I am no expert on these so I'm happy to be corrected, but I always understood these types of programs as the gov't not collecting any/as much tax as they otherwise would based on the vastly increased value of the property once it's developed for a period of time in the name of getting that development to happen in the first place. So if my interpretation is correct, the government isn't actually out any money at all...

Happy for someone to set me straight on this once and for all, as it's always been a head-scratcher why people hate these programs so much and consider them corporate welfare.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by H2man

Isn't the $30,000,000 just forgone revenue that we otherwise wouldn't have gotten anyway if the project never happened? Or in these TIF types of programs are we literally writing cheques?

I am no expert on these so I'm happy to be corrected, but I always understood these types of programs as the gov't not collecting any/as much tax as they otherwise would based on the vastly increased value of the property once it's developed for a period of time in the name of getting that development to happen in the first place. So if my interpretation is correct, the government isn't actually out any money at all...

Happy for someone to set me straight on this once and for all, as it's always been a head-scratcher why people hate these programs so much and consider them corporate welfare.

Your understanding of the TIF mechanism is correct. Basically TIF goes like this: an underutilized land parcel is worth $A, and will pay a total of $X in property tax over the next 25 years. The developer then approaches the city and says "the land parcel will be worth $B after I build on it, and will bring in $Y tax dollars over the next 25 years. Can you please reinvest the net new taxes added (i.e. $Y - $X) specifically into the area instead of using it in general revenue? It will make the area more attractive, and hopefully attract more businesses and further improve the area."

After 25 years (or whatever the TIF period is), the property tax revenue can go back into general coffers. But for now, in the case of True North Square, the incremental new property tax from True North's investment over the TIF time period is dedicated to improving the area which in this instance means a $30 million plaza.

Whether or not this is a fair or equitable practice is often debated. There are many aspects to the TIF argument, as it has both pros and cons. Few are qualified to actually comment on its effectiveness as an economic development tool.

[H2man]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

Your understanding of the TIF mechanism is correct. Basically TIF goes like this: an underutilized land parcel is worth $A, and will pay a total of $X in property tax over the next 25 years. The developer then approaches the city and says "the land parcel will be worth $B after I build on it, and will bring in $Y tax dollars over the next 25 years. Can you please reinvest the net new taxes added (i.e. $Y - $X) specifically into the area instead of using it in general revenue? It will make the area more attractive, and hopefully attract more businesses and further improve the area."

After 25 years (or whatever the TIF period is), the property tax revenue can go back into general coffers. But for now, in the case of True North Square, the incremental new property tax from True North's investment over the TIF time period is dedicated to improving the area which in this instance means a $30 million plaza.

Whether or not this is a fair or equitable practice is often debated. There are many aspects to the TIF argument, as it has both pros and cons. Few are qualified to actually comment on its effectiveness as an economic development tool.

Thank you so much for your explanation confirming my assumptions.

I guess I am just very much in the "pro" category (although I agree its implications are more complex than both you or I understand) such that I don't understand why people are against it or view it as a net loss (assuming they also understand it correctly).

You get:
- a shiny new piece for your downtown
- a vehicle to promote development of the immediate area
- more tax dollars in the long run, since the land has a much higher value than if the development never happened at all

You lose:
- extra tax dollars from the increased value in the short term, assuming the business case is even strong enough to go ahead without the incentive at all

I wouldn't even bother with the "reinvesting the money into public spaces" part. Just having to not pay extra taxes on the land for a while in order to help the business case to get the project off the ground is enough reason for me to do this.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by EndoftheBeginning

Don't think this was posted yet -Ray Wan designed tower for corner of Tuxedo and Corydon, replacing the Shell gas station. It has 3 CRUs on the main level.

The WAA gave their support for this development with the provision that this will be the ONLY tower on this site for the rest of the lifespan of this property. No councilor on the Assiniboia Community Committee even batted an eye at this, instead focused their questions on a bus stop (which was xero concern), parking and the fucking shrubbery.

The WAA is ridiculous.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by Jeff

So I clearly don't know all the details, but hearing about the rush to build a new National Research Council building in Montreal to handle a made-in-Canada vaccine makes me wonder if this city didn't even try to land this type of thing or whether it is Trudeau playing to his Montreal base again. I just say this because we have two empty NRC buildings (Ellice @ Balmoral and the one on Lag. beside the Mint) and the national Virology lab here already. Seems like Winnipeg coulda played some part in all of this....

The building beside the mint that is for sale was a Health Canada Lab Building nothing to do with NRC. Could it be converted maybe, but at what cost to convert it from a drug detection lab to a pharmaceutical grade production site.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

The WAA gave their support for this development with the provision that this will be the ONLY tower on this site for the rest of the lifespan of this property. No councilor on the Assiniboia Community Committee even batted an eye at this, instead focused their questions on a bus stop (which was xero concern), parking and the fucking shrubbery.

The WAA is ridiculous.

I get that they're concerned for their interests, but shouldn't the people who move into these buildings simply be aware of the the noise. Caveat emptor, it's simple.

Like obviously the people who live in the area already have no issues with the flights coming in at night (when they do come in that is). What am I missing? Is 24h status that fragile?

[cllew]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

I get that they're concerned for their interests, but shouldn't the people who move into these buildings simply be aware of the the noise. Caveat emptor, it's simple.

Like obviously the people who live in the area already have no issues with the flights coming in at night (when they do come in that is). What am I missing? Is 24h status that fragile?

If there are enough people that complain it (the 24 hour operation license) can be revoked and then WAA looses the overnight airfreight runs which help pay the bills when the passenger planes are not running.

If they did not have air freight right now I can only imagine what the monthly losses would be.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by cllew

If there are enough people that complain it (the 24 hour operation license) can be revoked and then WAA looses the overnight airfreight runs which help pay the bills when the passenger planes are not running.

If they did not have air freight right now I can only imagine what the monthly losses would be.

Well that's what I mean by caveat emptor. Find a way to legally protect their status and shelter their 24h operating license from nuisance claims. There must be a way to do that.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

Yeah I'm not quite sure how True North Square creating more office space and "poaching" tenants is a bad thing? If anything, in theory it puts competitive pressure on property owners whose buildings are being vacated to upgrade their spaces and/or lower their rental rates to attract new tenants to fill the gap, which means more firms can move from B to A office space, and so on.

Alternatively, it can also force property owners to reconfigure their spaces for more efficient use such as residential if the market for office simply isn't there.

These market adjustments take time, and are not instant. Vacancy rates did not shoot up significantly when TNS opened up, and the only major office project on the horizon is Wawanesa which might cause a vacancy problem for one or two existing unsubstantial buildings.

Sure, COVID and the work-from-home movement has called the future of office space into question, but this isn't isolated to Winnipeg at all. In fact, I'd argue Winnipeg's more "traditional" office sector managed by old school boomers means work-from-home when the pandemic is over is going to be less likely relative to office markets with a lot of hot tech companies all competing for young, car and monthly parking fee-hating, mobile talent (Vancouver and Toronto).

Totally agree. Plus, while there is other Class A offices downtown, most are old even if upgraded, and none come close to the level of amenities, technology, etc. that TNS does. It's one of a kind in Winnipeg – and the fact that it is now full should serve to show other investors/developers that there is a market for top tier office space in downtown Winnipeg.

People here keep mentioning 201 Portage being empty, desolate and doomed. Here are the openings they have listed, seems like a farcry from "exodus" that happened from TNS.

Originally Posted by Jeff

with downtown currently suffering particularly hard, would an aggressive downtown-specific business tax cut be a smart tool to employ to stem some of the backslide?

Yes. Or just extend the TIF zone to be all of downtown instead of the absurdly odd shaped SHED TIF that mysteriously happens to magically zig zag around all TN-owned properties.

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

The WAA gave their support for this development with the provision that this will be the ONLY tower on this site for the rest of the lifespan of this property. No councilor on the Assiniboia Community Committee even batted an eye at this, instead focused their questions on a bus stop (which was xero concern), parking and the fucking shrubbery.

The WAA is ridiculous.

I don't understand... how is one building OK but 2 wouldn't be. I actually don't get it.

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Well that's what I mean by caveat emptor. Find a way to legally protect their status and shelter their 24h operating license from nuisance claims. There must be a way to do that.

Ya you'd think some sort of waiver/statement on your lease or purchase that you acknowledge you're in the fly zone would be enough...

[Labroco]

Well 70,000ft2 of space is a huge vacancy and costly to carry.

I agree, the SHED boundaries ARE wonky...

[plrh]

The ridiculous thing about the WAA restriction is that the new tower proposal is not remotely near a flightpath. It's between the two, but it's no closer than Wolseley or Moray st. So is WAA now the planning authority for the west part of the city?

[esquire]

The idea that you have get the WAA's blessing for something nowhere near the airport is nuts. The tail is wagging the dog here. The sooner this gets fixed, the better.

Visual illustration of the planning process

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

The idea that you have get the WAA's blessing for something nowhere near the airport is nuts. The tail is wagging the dog here. The sooner this gets fixed, the better.

Visual illustration of the planning process

Accurate. You come to my house on my daughter's wedding?