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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 4:17 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
A capital should be in a transportation nexus, with trains, a major airport, good local transit, etc. Access shouldn't be mostly just cars.
Exactly. And pre-20th century it also made sense for them to be on a navigable waterway. But that also happened to be a huge liability in the early history of the United States, when statehouses were much more critical to the continuity of the federal government. Especially for those states on the east coast and Great Lakes that were located directly on a hostile border.
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000 View Post
I don't know if I agree with this. I just think of NYC and Albany. Upstate NY might be worse off if the state's political power revolved around NYC even more.
You mean kinda like how Harrisburg's location in the SE quadrant, less than 100 miles from Philadelphia contributes to the rest of PA being worse off due to that fact?
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 4:25 PM
TempleGuy1000 TempleGuy1000 is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
You mean kinda like how Harrisburg's location in the SE quadrant, less than 100 miles from Philadelphia contributes to the rest of PA being worse off due to that fact?
Well SE PA subsidizes the rest of the state and we get shit funding for SEPTA in return so there is that and Philly isn't the Godzilla NYC is in state politics already.

Moving the Capitol from Harrisburg to say State College would not make much of a difference IMO.
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
^nice geographical setting.
The Susquehanna River valley is beautiful. Harrisburg is pretty rough around the edges, but like most of PA, quite scenic.

It would have definitely developed into a major city if the Susquehanna was navigable.
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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 4:44 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000 View Post
Well SE PA subsidizes the rest of the state and we get shit funding for SEPTA in return so there is that and Philly isn't the Godzilla NYC is in state politics already.

Moving the Capitol from Harrisburg to say State College would not make much of a difference IMO.
I'm pretty sure NYC subsidizes NYS way more than SE PA subsidizes the rest of Pennsylvania.

That said, I don't think the location of the NY capital has helped upstate NY's situation at all. Upstate NY experienced pretty much the worst economic declines of any region in U.S. history except the post-Antebellum South. Upstate NY would be in the same situation it is today whether the capital was in NYC, Albany, or Buffalo*.

*Btw, Albany is twice as far from Buffalo as it is from NYC, so the capital isn't exactly centrally located today, nor was it ever intended to be.
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  #26  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
As someone from the southest of SoCal, I'm pretty fine with Sacramento being our capital. The Bay Area and LA are inevitably going to disagree about nearly everything, and they are near equal in prominence so it wouldn't be good to favor one over the other. It's best to have a neutral party to resolve disputes. A location in the Central Valley is far enough removed from both to prevent the local politics from effecting state decision making.

[...]

So if we had to do it all over again, I'd still recommend Sacramento for the CA state capital.
I agree with you. In my 52 years of life, northern California and the Bay Area have always seemed to despise LA. Owens Valley people hated us for "stealing" their water (though over the years LA has relied less on their water, now only a third of the city of LA's water comes from the Owens Valley), and San Francisco/Bay Area has always claimed that LA gets preference in tax-funded infrastructure and other things. I remember in the mid-1990s, my sister's friend, who is from the Bay Area (Albany, north of Berkeley), complained that the Cypress Structure of the Nimitz Freeway that collapsed in Oakland during the 1989 Loma Prieta Earthquake still hadn't been rebuilt or permanently rerouted, whereas the section of the Santa Monica Freeway that collapsed in LA during the 1994 Northridge Earthquake was rebuilt and reopened within 3 months.

So yeah, Sacramento seems to be a good neutral place for California's capital, although people who have been moving there from the Bay Area in the last 10 years or so seem to claim Sacramento as being part of the Bay Area now, which is somehow ironic, being that many people from the Bay Area seem to look down on the city of Sacramento.
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  #27  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000 View Post
Well SE PA subsidizes the rest of the state and we get shit funding for SEPTA in return so there is that and Philly isn't the Godzilla NYC is in state politics already.
SE PA does not "subsidize'" the rest of the state. This way overplayed notion is simply false.

Philadelphia gets a 260% rate of return from the state on its tax dollar "investment". This is BY FAR the greatest percentage of state funding over taxes received by any urban county. It actually has the second highest second highest percentage of ALL counties in the state... with only tiny Forest County at 7k residents receiving a greater percentage level... and that's only due to the fact that over a 1/3 of the residents are state correctional institution prisoners!

And I actually think Philadelphia should receive more. But let's not run counter to the facts of the matter.

Montgomery, Bucks, Chester, Delaware counties are the top 4 wealthiest in the state. So if you want more funding for SEPTA, they should pay for it.
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I'm pretty sure NYC subsidizes NYS way more than SE PA subsidizes the rest of Pennsylvania.
Right, and it's not even close.

Philadelphia proper is more of a drain on its wealthy collar counties than the rest of the state is on them.
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  #29  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:32 PM
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Pretty sure SE PA subsidizes the rest of PA. Not to the extent of NYC and NYS, but not massively dissimilar either.

SE PA is the wealthiest, most populous part of the state, and the only region with significant growth. It's also a political outlier.

Also, PA, moreso than the other Northeastern states, seems to have a visceral disdain for anything related to urban issues. You see it in the contempt towards Septa, the 20-year delay in the rail extension from NYC to Scranton, etc. Lots of race-coding or liberal-elitist bashing. Also the fracking contrast between PA and NYS. PA, moreso than the other NE states, seems to have an outsized share of red, rural influence.
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  #30  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
SE PA does not "subsidize'" the rest of the state. This way overplayed notion is simply false.

Philadelphia gets a 260% rate of return from the state on its tax dollar "investment". This is BY FAR the greatest percentage of state funding over taxes received by any urban county. It actually has the second highest second highest percentage of all counties in the state... with only tiny Forest County at 7k residents receiving a greater level... and that's only due to the fact that over a 1/3 of the residents are state correctional institution prisoners!

And I actually think Philadelphia should receive more. But let's not run counter to the facts of the matter.

Montgomery, Bucks, Chester, Delaware counties are the top 4 wealthiest in the state. So if you want more funding for SEPTA, they should pay for it.
.....Well I said SE PA and Philadelphia county doesn't constitute 'SE PA' and makes up only a % of the 5 million-plus people who call SE PA home. If you split Pennsylvania in half, the eastern side would be more like Maryland and NJ demographically and socioeconomically. Western PA would be looking more like WV and Ohio. People in Western PA are always complaining about Philadelphia "getting too much money", but that's a bit of a throwing rocks in a glass house situation in terms of what would happen if we split in two.
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:37 PM
TempleGuy1000 TempleGuy1000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Pretty sure SE PA subsidizes the rest of PA. Not to the extent of NYC and NYS, but not massively dissimilar either.
This is the map by counties
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000 View Post
This is the map by counties
Trump(red)/Biden(Blue)


hmm..
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:46 PM
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Regina was built in a barren field and selected as the Capital of Saskatchewan due to shady land deals with Edgar Dewdney, a prominent colonial administrator in the late 19th century.

It has no business existing in the first place -- the notional city we call Regina should by all logic be located either at Lumsden or Fort Qu'Appelle, where there is water and trees.

Either that or Regina shouldn't exist at all, and the Capital ought to be Moose Jaw.

Some say that when Saskatchewan and Alberta were carved out of the Northwest Territories in 1905, that the leading idea was to create one province, but this was kiboshed in the halls of power in Ottawa as the Laurentian Elite didn't want to chance a province that could rival the political weight of Ontario and Quebec. If one province had been created, I always thought that Battleford would have been the obvious choice for Capital. Central location, great geography, beautiful river valley, and it was at one point the capital of the NWT. Instead, Battleford/North Battleford became a third-tier centre in one of the smaller provinces, known primarily for its crime.
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:47 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000 View Post
This is the map by counties
That just shows that PA's major metro areas are donors, which is true of any state with a major metro. Pennsylvania's two largest metros are also far more even than New York State's two largest metros. I don't think the donor/welfare unbalance is even remotely as stark in PA as it is in NY. The only state that's likely to be as unbalanced as New York is Illinois.
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:47 PM
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I live in Florida so obviously not happy with the location of our State Capital.
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:50 PM
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I assume FL, prior to air conditioning, and the jet age, was basically everything north of Gainesville?

So basically South AL or South GA? And the rest of the state was more or less swampland? That has to be the reason for the bizarre seat of govt. I know Jacksonville was pretty important.

Even when Miami became a popular leisure destination right after WW2, it had to be something of an island, in a sea of relative nothing.
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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Pretty sure SE PA subsidizes the rest of PA. Not to the extent of NYC and NYS, but not massively dissimilar either.

SE PA is the wealthiest, most populous part of the state, and the only region with significant growth. It's also a political outlier.
SE PA counties (aside from Philadelphia County) do in fact pay more in taxes to the state than they receive back in state funding... but that does not mean that they "subsidize the rest of PA".

It is FAR more accurate to say that the rest of the state subsidizes Philadelphia.
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 6:04 PM
dave8721 dave8721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I assume FL, prior to air conditioning, and the jet age, was basically everything north of Gainesville?

So basically South AL or South GA? And the rest of the state was more or less swampland? That has to be the reason for the bizarre seat of govt. I know Jacksonville was pretty important.

Even when Miami became a popular leisure destination right after WW2, it had to be something of an island, in a sea of relative nothing.
in 1824 Florida's largest cities were St. Augustine and Pensacola. Tallahassee is roughly in the middle of those 2. Obviously if anyone located a capital in Florida now it would go in Orlando.
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 6:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000 View Post
.....Well I said SE PA and Philadelphia county doesn't constitute 'SE PA' and makes up only a % of the 5 million-plus people who call SE PA home. If you split Pennsylvania in half, the eastern side would be more like Maryland and NJ demographically and socioeconomically. Western PA would be looking more like WV and Ohio. People in Western PA are always complaining about Philadelphia "getting too much money", but that's a bit of a throwing rocks in a glass house situation in terms of what would happen if we split in two.
Philadelphia makes up where most if the money is going.

And as I said, I think Philadelphia (and other PA cities) should get even more... and Philadelphia already gets around $4B in state funding.

And let's not deal in ridiculous hypotheticals.... because if you really want to go down a silly path, let's talk about what would've happened if the state decided to split in two in say, 1940.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
That just shows that PA's major metro areas are donors, which is true of any state with a major metro.
Exactly
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2022, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000 View Post
This is the map by counties
And it shows just how much of an extreme outlier that Philadelphia is.

Most populated PA county and receives the most in state aid by amount and percentage over taxes paid... it is also the largest "taker".

Of the next 20 most populated counties, 17 are "givers". And the 3 that are "takers"... are in population positions 14, 19, and 20...

Last edited by pj3000; Sep 28, 2022 at 6:49 PM.
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