Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Djeffery]

I think the people who would choose to live in those units are probably hoping for that, or at least not that risk averse to that. In reality though, given the length of the season and who the players are, there's likely not a lot of risk. Also hard to tell how much space in left between the wall and the buildings. Are the bullpens between? Look at how many homers to left at the Rogers Centre end up in the bullpen off the bat of big leaguers. No doubt there will be the odd guy who connects and bounces one off a balcony or bedroom window, but I doubt it will be even meet the definition of "infrequent". The might also put a net up there as well.

[esquire]

^ It may not be frequent, but soon enough, unless there's a big ugly net put up, someone will be taking a ball through a bedroom window. If I own one of the units I definitely want responsibility for that accepted up front by the stadium operator.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That is nice.

Random question; doesn't a hotel or condo facing a sports field (Lansdowne in Ottawa is another example) a disincentive on the occupants to buy tickets to the game? Not meant to be criticism. I love the look and feel of these types of projects, just a question as a moderate sports fan.

There aren't that many people who can fit into those condo windows and watch the game for free, though.

Even if you consider crowds of 20,000, 100 people watching the game from a condo balcony is spare change.

[J.OT13]

City of Ottawa report recommends demolishing the 10k seat 1967 Civic Centre and North Side TD Place stands and replace with new stands, a a 5k OHL arena and residential/retail.

Civic Centre is quite a unique building with so much history, from Pierre Elliott Trudeau's party leadership to the return of the Sens however, its lack of washrooms and concessions, mold issues and awkward layout (low ceiling on one side of the bowl, for example) makes it hard to salvage. It is structurally sound, however, for what it's worth.

[jonny24]

Anyone know what's happening at Tim Hortons Field? The upper East stand has the perimeter rails and 3-4 rows of seats removed all along both sides and the top edge, with wooden safety rail put up. Saw some workers on site this morning but it was before they were actually doing anything.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by jonny24

Anyone know what's happening at Tim Hortons Field? The upper East stand has the perimeter rails and 3-4 rows of seats removed all along both sides and the top edge, with wooden safety rail put up. Saw some workers on site this morning but it was before they were actually doing anything.

Repairs to some of the deficiencies that led to the city's fight with the province and builder.


From The Spec:
The city will close a stretch of Balsam Avenue North to do repairs on Tim Hortons Field starting Monday.

The closure, which is expected to last four days, is to allow contractors to do $1.1 million in work to correct “latent defects” in the stadium’s construction.

Last year, city staff flagged a need to address faulty end guards that surround the perimeter of the stadium that was built for the 2015 Pan Am Games.

Council gave the green light for the work in September after receiving legal advice in closed session.

The $145-million stadium has been a sore point for the city since Infrastructure Ontario handed it over late with a host of problems in May 2015. A multimillion-dollar legal settlement was reached in 2018.
https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilto...d-closure.html

[JHikka]

re: Lansdowne

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Lansdowne redevelopment should have included north-side stands, mayor admits
Jim Watson also says more public funds could be spent on city-owned stadium, arena

Joanne Chianello · CBC News
Posted: Jul 07, 2021 5:40 PM ET | Last Updated: 2 hours ago



The City of Ottawa should have replaced the north-side stands of TD Place stadium, and the arena underneath, during the massive redevelopment of Lansdowne less than a decade ago, Mayor Jim Watson said Wednesday.

Watson's comments come a day after the city's finance and economic development committee agreed to consider a plan to rebuild the 54-year-old concrete structure, which a recent report confirmed has a long list of problems.

The city signed a decades-long deal with its private partner, Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group (OSEG), to revitalize Lansdowne in 2012. At the time, the city spent $135 million to redevelop the stadium, which is publicly owned. The bulk of that money went toward replacing the south-side stands, which had been deemed unsafe.

But the north-side stands, and the Civic Centre underneath it, weren't refurbished.

"When we did the revitalization, we probably, in hindsight, should have done the north-side stands-Civic Centre renovation at the same time," Watson told reporters after the city council meeting.

"And we also recognize, now, that we also need more people to live on the site."

The mayor also didn't rule out spending more public money on the city-owned stadium complex if the reconstruction eventually goes ahead.

"That's obviously one of the options that we have to look at because when you own the facility, you obviously own the responsibility to maintain it," he said.

"The bottom line is, the city owns those assets so ultimately we're responsible for their upgrade."

Full council still needs to give the formal go-ahead to explore the proposal to rebuild the stands complex and it will be months before OSEG comes back with a business plan.

The reconstruction will cost tens of millions of dollars, and it's unclear how the project will be funded. Under the Lansdowne partnership plan, OSEG pays for the ongoing operating costs of the stadium, but the building itself belongs to the city.

Options to defray the costs of construction include adding housing on top of the new structure — which would also bring more people to Lansdowne — and applying a ticket surcharge for events there.

The mayor admitted those measures may not be enough to cover the costs.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...tson-1.6091941

[esquire]

^ That would have been the logical thing to do, yes. Canada does tend to be super-frugal when it comes to stadiums, though, so at least it was keeping with the national character with this sort of stuff.

Even the new grandstand that Ottawa did build is somewhat on the underwhelming side, although I will give them credit for some nice and attractive design touches.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Even the new grandstand that Ottawa did build is somewhat on the underwhelming side, although I will give them credit for some nice and attractive design touches.

Ah yes, the wooden veil so nice it bankrupted the company that designed and made it.

https://ottawacitizen.com/business/l...re-and-layoffs

I guess you don't have a new stadium in Canada unless it's filled with lawsuits, unpaid bills, and immediate deficiencies.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I guess you don't have a new stadium in Canada unless it's filled with lawsuits, unpaid bills, and immediate deficiencies.

That is a bit of a cliche for sure. But I wonder how much of that is a product of reporters attuned to sniffing out these kinds of issues with publicly funded stadiums where you can submit access to information requests for details?

You seldom hear about these kinds of issues with privately-owned or operated NHL arenas... are they just better at managing construction or can they simply keep this hidden out of the public eye given that it is usually a private affair?

I also wonder what kinds of issues there might have been in the late 70s/early 80s heyday of Canadian stadium expansion and construction that the press simply never pried into. For instance, I remember reading about shenanigans at the Big O construction site where trucks would supposedly come with loads of building materials, drive through without dumping, then come back again with another "delivery", etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ That would have been the logical thing to do, yes. Canada does tend to be super-frugal when it comes to stadiums, though, so at least it was keeping with the national character with this sort of stuff.

Even the new grandstand that Ottawa did build is somewhat on the underwhelming side, although I will give them credit for some nice and attractive design touches.

I don't think I've ever heard "half-assed" described in such a nice way!

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think I've ever heard "half-assed" described in such a nice way!

It literally was half-done, so 'half assed' indeed.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

That is a bit of a cliche for sure. But I wonder how much of that is a product of reporters attuned to sniffing out these kinds of issues with publicly funded stadiums where you can submit access to information requests for details?

It's a good point to make but sometimes the issues are impossible to hide, like speakers falling at THF or the roof collapsing at BC Place.

Originally Posted by esquire

You seldom hear about these kinds of issues with privately-owned or operated NHL arenas... are they just better at managing construction or can they simply keep this hidden out of the public eye given that it is usually a private affair?

Think there's definitely a better ability to manage construction. Still, these sorts of things happen; Rogers Place in Edmonton suffered water damage from leaks during a heavy rainfall in 2020. You're right, though, in that these arenas have tenants capable of footing more of the bill on their own and thus are under less public books and scrutiny.

I'm pretty sure i've seen water leaking from the North Stands above during 67s games in the past few years during rainfalls.

Originally Posted by esquire

I also wonder what kinds of issues there might have been in the late 70s/early 80s heyday of Canadian stadium expansion and construction that the press simply never pried into. For instance, I remember reading about shenanigans at the Big O construction site where trucks would supposedly come with loads of building materials, drive through without dumping, then come back again with another "delivery", etc.

Surely Olympic is the poster child for stadiums that had absolutely everything go wrong with them.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I guess you don't have a new stadium in Canada unless it's filled with lawsuits, unpaid bills, and immediate deficiencies.

Olympic Stadium and SkyDome's legacy lives on.

Governments are so loath to be seen as spending excessive money that they do the cheap-out thing, or offer very rigid fixed-price contracts. This is in contrast to those stadiums' relatively free-spending, but politically costly budgets.

Some of this is transparency at work too, as the squabbles over money end up in court.

[Hackslack]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that for government funded infrastructure or buildings/ stadiums, when the project goes out for bid, I believe that governments are almost handcuffed to go with the lowest practical bid, for reasons like using tax payer dollars to fund these projects, or avoid the impression of favouritism to contractors that have higher bids… utilizing the lowest bids may typically result in half assed, unfinished products

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that for government funded infrastructure or buildings/ stadiums, when the project goes out for bid, I believe that governments are almost handcuffed to go with the lowest practical bid, for reasons like using tax payer dollars to fund these projects, or avoid the impression of favouritism to contractors that have higher bids… utilizing the lowest bids may typically result in half assed, unfinished products

I think some allowance can be made for a materially better bid, but yes, generally low price is easier to sell politically.

I have a nagging suspicion construction companies know this and underbid, hoping to wrangle additional money when things don't go to plan.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Ah yes, the wooden veil so nice it bankrupted the company that designed and made it.

https://ottawacitizen.com/business/l...re-and-layoffs

The conclusion isn't that we shouldn't build nice things. It's a commentary on how projects are managed. Hopefully when they rebuild the north stands, these issues will have been resolved. If they aren't, they'll end up repeating what happened with the south stands. Another bankruptcy, people going unpaid, etc. I suppose we'll end up with yet another stadium where one stand doesn't match the other stand. Tim Hortons Field? BMO Field? Molson Stadium?

The south stand replicated on the north side would be ideal.

[HomerSPC]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The conclusion isn't that we shouldn't build nice things. It's a commentary on how projects are managed. Hopefully when they rebuild the north stands, these issues will have been resolved. If they aren't, they'll end up repeating what happened with the south stands. Another bankruptcy, people going unpaid, etc. I suppose we'll end up with yet another stadium where one stand doesn't match the other stand. Tim Hortons Field? BMO Field? Molson Stadium?

The south stand replicated on the north side would be ideal.

I don't understand the fixation on having exactly the same design when built in multiple phases. Older European soccer stadiums were all built at different times, with different designs, and no one bats an eye at it.

[Djeffery]

Replicating the south on the north probably precludes the arena. Which is fine if there is another cost-effective option for an arena elsewhere. But if the mayor wants to increase the population around there to help pay for it, an arena is probably a better draw than a football stadium, so I imagine the arena needs to be part of it.

[blueandgoldguy]

The old north stand seats approx. 14,000 while the new south stand seats approx. 11,000. TD Place would lose 3,000 seats if they constructed a new stand that mirrors the south stand which, in turn, would necessitate higher ticket prices.

The optimal choice would be construction of a multi-level stand that seats nearly the same number of people as the old one...with improved concessions/washrooms and likely additional suites/club seats and a designated area/restaurant for club/suite holders.

Based on my uneducated opinion, demolition of the old stand and 10,000 seat arena + construction of a new 13,000+ seat stand + construction of a 5-6,000 seat arena would likely be exceed $150 million. $100 million for the new stand and $50 million for a new hockey arena for the junior team....seems to be the going rate.