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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 8:12 PM
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I guess it depends on what you do... I work for a national commercial construction co, and in the last three months I've been offered construction management positions for jobs in Calgary, Winnipeg, and Vancouver. My wage would be the same in either place. I bought my house in Edmonton three years ago for $120,000... very affordable. Right now it is worth +/- $240,000. Still quite affordable. When I left Calgary I sold my condo downtown for $180,000... now worth $340,000 ish. Well beyond my price range for moving back and having the same living arrangement. Vancouver is even more expensive, but if I moved to the 'Peg, I could be (almost) mortgage free. Not that I'm going to do that, but I see why people moving back to places like Sask and Manitoba.... I'm moving back to Vancouver soon, not for the economic advantage but for the quality of life.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 8:21 PM
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^ I think the "quality of life" - which is always a personal opinion anyway - has to factor in...even if I could save a few bucks moving back to Winnipeg (which I doubt anyway), I like the lifestyle in Calgary. Some will prefer Van, others will like Winnipeg. But there is more to it than pure cost.

Oh, and on the comment from the article "On average, it takes Winnipeggers 2.5 years of salary to buy a home -- up slightly from 2.4 years in 2005." - it would theoretically take my wife and I 1.5 years. If we just bought our house this year at the inflated prices it would take about 2.6 years.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 8:29 PM
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Top 10 isn't bad, but we are apparently the best.


A great, cheap place to live

Regina is one of the most affordable places to live.

Heather Polischuk, The Leader-Post
Published: Monday, January 22, 2007

Regina -- identified in a new study as one of the cheapest places in the world to own a home -- may be headed for a boom in the near future, should housing prices continue to soar in other Canadian cities, predicts a senior fellow at the Winnipeg-based Frontier Centre for Public Policy.

"If Edmonton and Calgary do not return to some much better housing affordability situation, I would not be a bit surprised to see a pretty good-sized influx of people from there to places like Regina and Saskatoon," said Wendell Cox, who assembled the housing affordability survey along with New Zealand-based property investment manager Hugh Pavletich. "So as long as your land use policies allow the building industry to respond to the increased demand, I think that Regina and Saskatoon, and Winnipeg for that matter, are likely to have a really improved future in the long run as refugees, frankly, from places like Vancouver and Calgary and Edmonton come."

The survey, posted today on the FCPP's Web site, notes Regina has the most affordable housing in Canada at a median multiple of 2.0. That means the price of the average home is twice the average household income.

"This is a measure that is recommended by both the World Bank and the U.N. ... Your median house price shouldn't be more than three times your median household income," Cox said.

Regina -- with a median house price of $115,000 and median income of $57,500 -- topped Canadian cities like Winnipeg, Quebec City and Saskatoon, which also have low median multiple figures. In Vancouver, on the other hand, the average income is only $58,100 while the average house costs about $448,800, meaning it costs home buyers 7.7 times their yearly income to buy a house there.

The survey looked at housing affordability in cities in Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand. Overall, Canada has the most affordable housing in the world, at a 3.2 median multiple.

Internationally, Regina tied with Fort Wayne, Ind., and Youngstown, Ohio, for the most affordable housing in the world, all at 2.0. The least affordable housing is in Los Angeles and Orange County, where the average home costs 11.1 times the average household income.

Cox said higher housing costs in cities like Los Angeles, San Diego and Vancouver is in part due to urban planning, with some large cities driving up prices by trying to avoid "urban sprawl." With urban planners avoiding building on cheaper land outside the current city limits, that means land within the city is at a premium.

"You are seeing a lot of communities -- and fortunately Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg and a whole lot of places in the United States and Canada are not going through this -- but you are basically seeing urban planning raising the price of housing so much by raising the price of land ..." he said. "So in the long run, we are going to see a lot lower percentage of people owning their own homes. And I see this as the principle threat to the economic future of countries like Canada and Australia and the United States."

Cox said unless the situation changes in some urban areas, the number of people who can afford houses is going to drop rapidly. And that has potentially huge ramifications for those cities.

"Cost of living is a crucial element in the long-term competitiveness of a city or an urban area ..." he said. "When companies are thinking about where to expand, housing affordability is very important ... So what that says I think in the long run is places like Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Dallas, Fort Worth and Austin and the like, that are able to keep their housing affordability at a reasonable level, are able to begin to grow faster."

Cox said one of the main reasons the six nations studied have become "affluent" over the past century is due to the increasing ability of citizens to buy their own homes. That is now under threat.

"Home ownership has been a mechanism for bringing all sorts of people into the economic mainstream ..." he said. "I'm for as many people being affluent as possible and the fact is the only way people can be affluent in large numbers is if their housing isn't very expensive."

Of the 159 international cities studied, 42 are affordable -- all in North America -- while 59 are severely unaffordable.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 8:33 PM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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Hello,

This thread caught my attention as I have just moved to Winnipeg from Vancouver. Last April, I sold my Port Moody condo (Suburban area about 35min east of the Vancouver City proper) for nearly double what I paid for it in 2003.

I have since moved to Winnipeg and have purchased a home in Wolseley (as of November). Lets just say I pretty much "traded" my 1-bedroom 684 sq/ft (including balcony) condo for a charming 2-br bungalow. The mortgage payments are about the same.

First of all, Port Moody is a nice little town, a 35min drive away from Downtown Vancouver, but it is traffic ridden, being densified at an alarming rate, and has been promised rapid transit forever it seems (See Evergreen Line Thread). It took me about 20 minutes to drive to work (in another suburb).

Now that I am here, I must say my wife and I have fallen in love with this neighbourhood! First of all, it is so quiet here. Even during the rush hour and school hours, Wolseley Avenue is "deserted" compared to traffic volume on local collector roads back home in Port Moody. Secondly, the area is so charming: big old character homes, billowing elm trees, close proximity to a community centre, schools, etc. We thoroughly enjoy our walks all around this area.

We enjoy going to the organic bakery and coffee store / bookstore only a few blocks away from our house.

In Port Moody, Starbucks was a 10 minute walk along a busy 4-lane road. Of course, at least it wasn't that busy either... try going to the OTHER starbucks in Port Moody and it is persistantly overrun by loud, obnoxious people. Since when did a coffee house have to sound like a pub on friday night? Try going to the park? Not much better... I guess this is the "small town" vision our hypocritical Mayor in Port Moody sees in his sleep. I don't know.
(Re: Port moody Mayor REFUSES any sort of overhead structure on the LRT line because it would damage the "small-town feel" -- uhm, then what do condo towers do???)

Anyways, as for the other bits... the PST is the same rate in Manitoba as it is in BC, so I don't notice that EXCEPT for the fact PST is assessed on EVERYTHING here it seems. You don't have to pay PST on meals at restaurants in BC. Secondly, the property taxes are DEFINITELY a lot higher here than in BC. I was assessed about $600 on my condo, which went down to $350 after the BC homeowners grant. My taxes here are going to be ~$1800 AFTER the equivalent grant that the MB government offers... a definite increase. This thread has brought to my attention the fact that 50% of the property taxation is school tax.

Next, in Port Moody (and all around the GVRD) You are assessed your city utilities as a seperate annual bill. My utility bill was about $450/year in Port Moody. Here, you have to pay for your water/sewer as you use them -- I guess the difference in how utilities are assessed narrows the gap in property taxes somewhat.

The property taxes and utilities are where the real difference is. But then, auto insurance is less here too (paying about 40% less). It costs more to heat your home here. So many variables to analyze.

Now live in a really nice part of Winnipeg, only 5 minutes drive from downtown. We have shops and services within walking distance -- heck, I could even walk to work downtown from here within a reasonable time. There is a mall and big-box shopping nearby on St. James. I am saving literally near $100/mo on gasoline for my car since moving here (MUCH less driving and cheaper gas). I was putting ~2500km on my car PER month living in the GVRD because of my work/school/friends being so spread out. I haven't even driven 1000km since moving here in November.

For my wife and I, this is definitely a much more attractive neighborhood to live than our old one. We are really happy with our decision to move here.
I don't expect a huge return on our house when we do sell one day, but I think that is part of the whole cost-benefit analysis between neighborhoods within cities, and of course, between cities.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 8:37 PM
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^ it all depends on what you personally define as "getting ahead".
And that, at the end of the day, is the most astute quote any of us can make.

I didn't move for the money - I moved for the location and the lifestyle. I actually planned on having less disposable income but it was a sacrifice I was willing to make to be close to the mountains. The current boom is icing, no more.

I know plenty of people who wouldn't leave Winnipeg for a 6 figure salary. As they say, "whatever floats your boat". Sometimes it's not just about the number of commas in your bank balance.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 8:37 PM
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After all, wasn't the original claim that Winnipeg is more affordable than Calgary? If it is more affordable I should have more money in the bank in Winnipeg at the end of the day.
No - it didn't claim you would have more money in the bank. It claimed you would be able to afford a house earning less income than most other cities.

The amount of money any one person has in their bank account has very little to do with your actual income - it only depends on how close you choose to live to your means.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 8:54 PM
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I can completely sympathize with the Calgarians on their prefence choice. Personally, barring myself being a pauper in Winnipeg, one couldn't pay me enough to move Calgary. Nothing wrong with Calgary, but the lifestyle doesn't appeal to me to all, and that of Winnipeg's does. Cheap housing is just gravy.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 8:57 PM
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The amount of money any one person has in their bank account has very little to do with your actual income - it only depends on how close you choose to live to your means.
That is true. When I bought the house, the mortgage co. approved me for $280,000... I spent less than half of that. I drive an 8 year old Toyota truck and eat out once per week. My extra cash is being diverted into a nice little chunk of land in the West Kootenays where I will one day be building a geodesic home with ground source heat and solar power.

I've got friends, especially in oil & gas, who are mortgaged to the hilt, and debt ridden buying new cars, RV's, furniture, high end electronics and other assorted bling bling, who may find themselves living well beyond their means in the future. I wonder, if in the 'peg, household spending and debt is lower, along with wages and housing costs

Last edited by 240glt; Jan 22, 2007 at 9:09 PM.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:27 PM
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No - it didn't claim you would have more money in the bank. It claimed you would be able to afford a house earning less income than most other cities.
Perhaps, but they neglect to mention a number of things in the column.

- the median household income of Calgary. I personally dont know what it is exactly, but it would be an interesting addition to the discussion. Sure you can buy a house with less money, you also can expect to get a job that pays a lot more either.

- the fact that the "average" houses are much different in terms of quality. A house in Winnipeg for $130k (average price) will be much older and need more repair than a $400k (average price) house in Calgary. Thats the funny thing about averages. In Winnipeg there are thousands of old run down houses that make the average seem like Winnipeg is full of cheap nice houses. In fact this is not the case. Perhaps the people that will be disappointed will be the people relocating to Calgary looking for a cheap run down house in a crime laden area.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:27 PM
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I wish these comparisons would use the costs on a monthly basis (mortgage, property tax and utilities) and then compare it to monthly income after income tax.

The last I heard the median household income in Calgary was over $73,000/year. With the lower taxes Albertans take home more income and when you take the $21,000/year above Manitoba, it can go a LONG way towards paying a mortgage. $1700/month is almost a $300k mortgage.

At the end of the day I think that if you want to compare 2 income families in Calgary with 2 income families in Winnipeg the Calgararians will still end up ahead of those in Winnipeg.

Also, Winnipeggers need to remember that the property taxes on a $300k home in Winnipeg will cost around $5000-6000/year compared to $1800/year in Calgary. So much for "living like a king in a mansion".
Dude, where have you been on this board?? I have been trying to tell my friends in Regina the same thing but they just dont get it...

Calgary sounds expensive but when using this formula, my wife and I are sitting at 2.5 times our household income to buy a median home...
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:28 PM
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The amount of money any one person has in their bank account has very little to do with your actual income - it only depends on how close you choose to live to your means.
It also has little to do with what city you live in.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:42 PM
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Dude, where have you been on this board?? I have been trying to tell my friends in Regina the same thing but they just dont get it...

Calgary sounds expensive but when using this formula, my wife and I are sitting at 2.5 times our household income to buy a median home...
I hear you loud and clear. To be honest, I believed once that living in Winnipeg would be cheaper too. Then my wife made me prove it on a spreadsheet. Needless to say I was quite surprised with the result.

That being said. I am thinking about buying a few acres close to Winnipeg pretty soon to hang on to... and one day build a house on it. I like the city for many other reasons, its just the skewed "affordability" claims that make me irritated.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:46 PM
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How big is the house that they are renting? 1400 sq ft homes in Calgary rent for about $1500/month.

If they are making "well above" $72,000 why cant they afford to buy a house? Are they living beyond their means? I know of a number of people who make over $100,000 and are still renting because they like driving new cars, eating out every dinner and wearing designer clothing.
Where? only in the Calgary Burbs can you rent a house for that or a crappy area...

Lets remember that the closer to downtown you are in Calgary the more expensive the house... (except the NE) Thus the average price of 400K is a long drive away from downtown so you can imagine the prices and rent closer to downtown...

FYI. my taxes are $6100/year on my house... I do live close to downtown...

I could move back to WPG live mortgage free in a house twice the size...but I am not moving unless the JETS come back..

Last edited by Pegger5; Jan 22, 2007 at 9:52 PM.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:52 PM
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Where? only in the Calgary Burbs can you rent a house for that or a crappy area...

Lets remember that the closer to downtown you are in Calgary the more expensive the house... (except the NE) Thus the average price of 400K is a long drive away from downtown so you can imagine the prices and rent closer to downtown...
Granted, but that says nothing about if someone CAN afford somewhere to live. Now apparently it has to be in the right place too.

I live in McKenzie Towne. Hardly a crappy area. My commute is 20 min to downtown (I start work at 7am) and there are a number of houses for rent at the $1500/month mark.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:58 PM
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McKenzie Towne may not be crappy, but it definitely is the 'burbs

Downtown living makes more sense to some, and if fact downtown living is a necessity for many. Affordability in a *decent* inner city area of Calgary is non-existent, especially compared to Winnipeg.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 10:25 PM
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When I first moved to Calgary I wanted an old house in the inner city. However I quickly realized that the inner city of Calgary is one of the most sought after areas in Calgary.

Of course I was from Winnipeg where the city is desperate to see people move into the inner city.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 11:14 PM
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Where? only in the Calgary Burbs can you rent a house for that or a crappy area...

Lets remember that the closer to downtown you are in Calgary the more expensive the house... (except the NE) Thus the average price of 400K is a long drive away from downtown so you can imagine the prices and rent closer to downtown...

FYI. my taxes are $6100/year on my house... I do live close to downtown...

I could move back to WPG live mortgage free in a house twice the size...but I am not moving unless the JETS come back..
Holy crap...Where do you live...Elbow Drive by the river? my taxes are $4300 but I live in Tanglewood...
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 12:01 AM
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Personally I am seriously relocating back to the Peg once I complete my business in Calgary over the next year or so. It is extremely hard to justify paying anything close to these property prices in Calgary, espcially with energy prices tanking so quickly. This is not to mention the low quality of the newer houses going up around town. They may have granite counters, but the workmanship is lacking... and they want 400K+ ... I just don't see it.

My wife and I have done well in Calgary... made some good money, but at the end of the day Winnipeg offers a much higher standard of living (at least for our tastes) .... owing a nice home and a lake front cottage is something we would really like. We also find the commuting time in Calgary to be more than we like... mostly do to the low capacity of infrastructure. In addition we have come to realize that Calgary is turning towards a much more generic city. With the closing of Eau Clair, Penny Lane Mall and the slow conversion of 17th away from dining and entertainment, the distict character is being sold as rapid as possible while the boom is on. The problem is the boom is also rapidly coming to an end in Calgary. There are some whispers of down sizing in this engery dominated city. It is really taking on the appearance of the 80's. Not that there will be a market crash in Calgary, but people here are not using much common sense when purchaisng homes... somehow defining there 400K home purchase as an investment. I would call it more speculation. thaninvestment. I have heard the stories of people dropping off the keys at the bank to there homes in the 80's after ther BIG investment tanked with the city.

If I owned a house in the Calgary Market I would be seriously considering selling while the market is still near its peak, but since I don't own I am in a situation of making some big choices.

We make a fairly good living.. above the quoated income of $72K.. .
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Last edited by newflyer; Jan 23, 2007 at 1:46 AM.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 12:03 AM
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 12:35 AM
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