Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[MiEncanto]

Keep dreaming folks. There’s a 0.0% chance of LR making it to Westgate. Sure, traffic sucks after a game or concert but otherwise there’s little demand for it and a ton of obstacles.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by PyroD

This should probably all be moved to the discussion thread. As for Westgate, I've seen lots of people clamoring for a line out that way. Leaving State Farm stadium is a nightmare, and there's lots more planned and under construction in terms of things to do. Not to mention, if along the original route, 3 high schools, a university and tons of apartments would be a long the route

Which original route are you referring to? Most of the clamoring I've seen reflects a desire for an easier way to get to and from NFL games and Taylor Swift concerts. Those events are a big deal in terms of congestion, but they're also too limited in number to generate sufficient ongoing ridership to justify the cost of a rail line.

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

Keep dreaming folks. There’s a 0.0% chance of LR making it to Westgate. Sure, traffic sucks after a game or concert but otherwise there’s little demand for it and a ton of obstacles.

I'll keep dreaming, but not in the way most others do. I thnk Glendale should reconsider light rail, but not with Westgate as a destination. As I recall, one of the major issues with going there was the need to build a bridge over the freight tracks than run along Grande Avenue. Heading up 59th Avenue from downtown Glendale would avoid that costly and complex project entirely.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by locolife

One reason is they want to send more trains in one direction at specific times, I took the train to the Suns game Thursday night, heading eastbound from 3rd/Jefferson station they had 2 trains with 4 cars each leaving at the same time. You certainly want flexibility for emergencies as well, if an accident occurs somewhere running to and from a built-in turnaround point makes sense as well.

There are no 4 car trains.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by AZRAM

It seems to me, political and funding issues aside, that the ideal situation would be for the L/R to continue on from Metrocenter to Westgate which IS a major destination point. People would be able to get on the L/R as far as Mesa and and go to a game or party in Westgate and not have to drive.

It currently takes about an hour and a half on the train to get from Main St/Gilbert Rd to 19th Ave/Dunlap. To go beyond to Metrocenter and then Westgate would be at least another half hour. Very few people would be willing to spend four hours on the train round trip.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

It currently takes about an hour and a half on the train to get from Main St/Gilbert Rd to 19th Ave/Dunlap. To go beyond to Metrocenter and then Westgate would be at least another half hour. Very few people would be willing to spend four hours on the train round trip.

If they ever run a train west on the median of the 10 to 83rd Ave it would be nice to have that run to westgate from downtown and I assume it could be fast with that alignment but you’re right a trip from Mesa to Glendale at the current route and speed is too long. I live in Tempe and take the train to Suns and D’Baks games when we go, it is much better than driving. I usually get on at Washington/Priest and it’s about 20 mins, comparable to driving especially when you unload use downtown traffic and parking garage hassles.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

There are no 4 car trains.

Okay, maybe it was 2 or 3, the point is regarding the ability to turnaround.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

It currently takes about an hour and a half on the train to get from Main St/Gilbert Rd to 19th Ave/Dunlap. To go beyond to Metrocenter and then Westgate would be at least another half hour. Very few people would be willing to spend four hours on the train round trip.

I wasn't aware Westgate attracted anyone from the east side, drivers included. The existence of the East Valley should not negate the needs of the West Valley anyways. I could have used the train to see bands at Westgate when I lived downtown.

[YourBuddy]

To me commuter rail would serve Westgate so much better. Is there enough traffic going to westgate on non event days? I’m not sure, but it’s seems to me like traffic is probably only bad when it’s a big concert or a football game which draw people from all over the valley. I would think commuter rail connecting Westgate, to downtown, to the East Valley, then a BRT route from westgate thru GCU campus and east to the light rail, and maybe a short route from the Metro center redevelopment to GCU would make a lot more sense.

[PyroD]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Which original route are you referring to? Most of the clamoring I've seen reflects a desire for an easier way to get to and from NFL games and Taylor Swift concerts. Those events are a big deal in terms of congestion, but they're also too limited in number to generate sufficient ongoing ridership to justify the cost of a rail line.

I was referring to the line originally meant to run to downtown Glendale. I believe at the time, Glendale wanted to keep the line open ended so that an extension to West gate would have been possible. Were that to come to fruition, Glendale avenue would pass by both Glendale and Independence High School's along with a lot housing, a fair amount of which is lower income.

Someone else mentioned commuter rail being needed and I think that's spot on. I'm aware, and I've read here that Light Rail isn't really intended to cross an entire metro, although it's certainly possible.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by PyroD

I was referring to the line originally meant to run to downtown Glendale. I believe at the time, Glendale wanted to keep the line open ended so that an extension to West gate would have been possible. Were that to come to fruition, Glendale avenue would pass by both Glendale and Independence High School's along with a lot housing, a fair amount of which is lower income.

Thanks for the clarification. There's also Alhambra High School, which would be covered even in Phoenix went ahead only with its own portion of the line.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I'll keep dreaming, but not in the way most others do. I thnk Glendale should reconsider light rail, but not with Westgate as a destination. As I recall, one of the major issues with going there was the need to build a bridge over the freight tracks than run along Grande Avenue. Heading up 59th Avenue from downtown Glendale would avoid that costly and complex project entirely.

It sounds like we're in violent agreement then. Glendale has several other financial, political, and practical reasons why they wouldn't pay to bring it all the way to Westgate.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

It sounds like we're in violent agreement then. Glendale has several other financial, political, and practical reasons why they wouldn't pay to bring it all the way to Westgate.

Yes, the subsizdized sports sprawl of Westgate has been a financial drain on Glendale. Building light rail to that particular destination would just be a case of digging oneself deeper into a hole.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by YourBuddy

To me commuter rail would serve Westgate so much better. Is there enough traffic going to westgate on non event days? I’m not sure, but it’s seems to me like traffic is probably only bad when it’s a big concert or a football game which draw people from all over the valley. I would think commuter rail connecting Westgate, to downtown, to the East Valley, then a BRT route from westgate thru GCU campus and east to the light rail, and maybe a short route from the Metro center redevelopment to GCU would make a lot more sense.

Commuter rail is the the real victim here. People are so frustrated with the low ridership, cost overruns, lengthy construction, and how slow light rail is that we're now seeing opposition in the suburbs to commuter rail- which would actually help the burbs! It's insane but the current effort in Gilbert to oppose commuter rail is not insignificant.

Commuter rail, using existing rights of way that cut from the southeast, through Tempe, the airport, Phoenix and then up Grande Ave would be an absolute boon for commuters at fairly reasonable costs that the Feds would pay a ton for. But alas, many think it's the same as light rail so there is a lot of associated opposition.

If you could get from Queen Creek to downtown Phx in 30 mins on a train that would be amazing.

The light rail gets to be pretty frustrating when you consider that our current expansions are all pretty suspect destinations. South Phoenix to downtown? I just don't see many in S. Phx using that to get to work.

I've long ranted about the disaster of brining LR to Metrocenter. Whatever, I'll be happy to be wrong but I still don't believe in that redevelopment project.

And then there's the Capitol complex, which is now a ghost town because the State went to almost entirely remote work! The State has recently demolished 3 massive buildings with no intention to rebuild due to consolidation. Those buildings were/are mostly admin so they could easily go remote; they're client facing. So great, we're going to spend hundreds of millions to encircle the part-time State Legislature? AND it's going to pass right by the Human Services Campus/CASS/homeless shelter so let your imagination wander.

The LR should have proceeded West along Van Buren to help redevelopment on an commercial street, instead of the boring state owned property on Wash and Jefferson. Then it could have turned up Grand Ave, y'know, where people live/work/eat who would actually use LR. Then it could jump on the I-10 west. What a waste.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

Commuter rail, using existing rights of way that cut from the southeast, through Tempe, the airport, Phoenix and then up Grande Ave would be an absolute boon for commuters at fairly reasonable costs that the Feds would pay a ton for. But alas, many think it's the same as light rail so there is a lot of associated opposition.

I don't think it's entirely about people associating commuter rail with whatever problems they perceive with light rail. Rail of any type has become yet another battle in the culture war. The more extreme forces that now dominate the Republican Party don't want passenger trains of any type anywhere near them.

In terms of commuter rail using existing track and right-of-way, I agree; however, that's why commuter rail would be unllikely to go to Westgate. The closest existing track comes is 59th Avenue and Grand in downtown Glendale. If Westgate were ever served by either commuter rail or light rail, then a game/concert day shuttle bus from there would make sense.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I don't think it's entirely about people associating commuter rail with whatever problems they perceive with light rail. Rail of any type has become yet another battle in the culture war. The more extreme forces that now dominate the Republican Party don't want passenger trains of any type anywhere near them.

I largely agree with that. Some of the rhetoric about commuter rail leveraged problems with the LR, such as increasing drifters and vagrants, which doesn't have to be the case if the commuter rail requires payment to enter.

I've seen social media posts showing people waiting at a red light waiting on a LR train to pass and say that it will increase traffic (plus construction woes), when the reality is these trains wont have near the frequency of LR and the construction traffic shouldn't be that problematic.

[azsunsurfer]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I don't think it's entirely about people associating commuter rail with whatever problems they perceive with light rail. Rail of any type has become yet another battle in the culture war. The more extreme forces that now dominate the Republican Party don't want passenger trains of any type anywhere near them.

In terms of commuter rail using existing track and right-of-way, I agree; however, that's why commuter rail would be unllikely to go to Westgate. The closest existing track comes is 59th Avenue and Grand in downtown Glendale. If Westgate were ever served by either commuter rail or light rail, then a game/concert day shuttle bus from there would make sense.

An oldie but a goody....the "extreme forces" always seem to be grounded in reality...also see 'people of metro LA' on instagram from another city with a relatively young mass transit network....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...hood/99233140/

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

An oldie but a goody....the "extreme forces" always seem to be grounded in reality...also see 'people of metro LA' on instagram from another city with a relatively young mass transit network....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...hood/99233140/

They are not grounded in reality when they invoke conspiracy theories about Agenda 21 and 15-minute cities. For the extremists in the state legislature and the Gilbert Town Council, it's about avoiding any type of train or anything that even resembles a train.

A six-year-old article, especially one that doesn't really distinguish between correlation and causation, may explain some doubts about light rail, but it has nothing to do with commuter rail, Amtrak intercity rail, or any of the other bogeymen currently in circulation.

[azsunsurfer]

I hope the tweekers adhere to the boundaries of the 15 minute cities lolol. Nice take from the safety of your homogenous community lol

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

I hope the tweekers adhere to the boundaries of the 15 minute cities lolol. Nice take from the safety of your homogenous community lol

For tweakers, a residential treatment center, or jail if treatment is refused, is probably both a 15-minute city and a homogenous community. That doesn't have much to do with the demonization of rail transit, though.

[YourBuddy]

These suburban weirdos are disconnected from reality. Do they even realize transients are more likely to stow away on freight cars that already use the tracks that don’t have employees checking for tickets?