When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal...

[Denscity]

Wait the Cirque HQ is in Toronto??
Even here in zero French BC I think that's totally wrong!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I think a lot of the "but we all knew Montreal was the real metropolis" talk from the 1960-80 era was at best a lagging indicator, or kind of like how upper-crust Brits might have consoled themselves with talk of gentlemanly manners in the 1920s.

Tony Montana was right when he said "first you get the money, then you get the power, then you get the women" -- and we can substitute "cultural cachet" or something like that for "women".

Toronto was richer by WW2 and had the Canadian hinterland on lock by the early 1960s.

I think the "lag" of past glory or past renown can last for a long time or even in some cases never go away.

A good example is Madrid and Barcelona, with the latter still being the one that tugs at the most heart strings.

We live in Canada so we don't have a dog in that race, but how many times do you guys hear about people wanting to go to Barcelona versus Madrid? For my part, the last time was precisely last Saturday when we had dinner with friends and their daughter and her boyfriend we discussing plans for a trip this spring.

I am reminded that the last time I went to Spain, I was sitting at YUL waiting for a flight to Madrid and this very nice Madrileña (living in the northern NE US and flying out of Montreal) was expressing frustration to me about how Barcelona got all the hype and that Madrid was a great city in its own right.

Now that I think of it, it definitely reminded me of something.

Anyway, Madrid is actually a great city, and owing to more recent growth spurts probably now has a bit more big city oomph than Barcelona does.

While Barcelona is the legendary cultural city with the mark of the troubadors and the great merchant class, the beautiful sea, etc., Madrid is no slouch either, having been the capital of Spain for centuries, with all the regal splendour that comes with that, and the city from which scores of world-dominating colonial pursuits were decided and acted upon.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Wait the Cirque HQ is in Toronto??
Even here in zero French BC I think that's totally wrong!

No, no. The Cirque du Soleil HQ is in Montreal. That was my point - that something like the Cirque du Soleil would never be HQ'd in Toronto.

[Rico Rommheim]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Wait the Cirque HQ is in Toronto??
Even here in zero French BC I think that's totally wrong!

Wait. Who said that? When did that happen ?

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think the "lag" of past glory or past renown can last for a long time or even in some cases never go away.

I hear you, and this can go a few ways, from regional forms of meaning like Catalonia, to sheer beauty like with Rio de Janeiro.

(As an aside, though... Barcelona as the great Spanish city? I can't see it! I mean, sure, it's a region, it's a political history, it's an implied revolt against centralization and an incredible port... but a greater city than Madrid? I have never even considered this as a possible outlook! I even am someone who prefers Naples to Rome, but I couldn't put it above in any real hierarchy...)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by le calmar

And there’s always the inevitable “joke thread” that will follow up. It’s so overdone it’s not funny at this point. It was just done 500 times before.

as for the inevitable joke thread, let me jump the gun to state that Toronto had the population sweepstakes wrapped up once Montreal became landlocked in the late 1960s and 1970s

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Also bigger mountains.

And Montreal has bigger mountains than Toronto!

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't wish this on anyone and I like Vancouver, but if any city in Canada has a "killing the goose that laid the golden egg" risk hanging over its head, that's it.

This is exactly it and why so many young BCers are giving up on the province and moving to Alberta for a vastly higher standard of living and why many new immigrants are starting to do the same.

Vancouver has so much going for it........... a nice city, more benign climates, beautiful mountains, well educated workforce, a major cargo & air port, and all in a province with abundant natural resources. Unfortunately the City & Province decided to throw all it's eggs into the real estate basket regardless of the consequences of Vancouverites themselves, making the city unlivable for all but the wealthiest. It thought it could pull off San Francisco prices with Alabama wages.

[ssiguy]

As far as population, I don't think Vancouver will ever pass Montreal, at least not in the next 60 years but it is possible. That said, by then I think Calgary could overtake both of them.

Even if both Calgary and Vancouver overtake Montreal, Montreal will ALWAYS remain Canada's 2nd city. It is the centre of French language and culture, a major head office centre, has a large manufacturing base, has a stronger identity, historic significance, old wealth, and media mecca. Being close to the power levers of Ottawa and Toronto also doesn't hurt. As far as #3, I think Calgary will overtake Vancouver. Vancouver certainly has a more historic relevance but Calgary is a vastly wealthier city and, much unlike Vancouver, is a head office city and with that comes media coverage, economic and financial influence, and political power. Vancouver has been Canada's 3rd largest city since forever but has never had any of those attributes much due to the fact that it is neither a government or head office city and why cities so much covet head office moves to their respective cities. A new head office may not represent that many new jobs but the prestige that comes with it have endless benefits...........a major head office can "put you on the map".

Size and importance are not the same thing. Phoenix is now basically the same size as Boston but in terms of importance, even putting them in the same sentence is laughable.

[MolsonExport]

good point. Boston towers above Phoenix in the public consciousness. Paris will always be Paris, even if it somehow gets regulated below Kinshasa in the French-speaking population sweepstakes (although truth be told, this is always shaky as the street language in Kinshasa is far from being French as we know it).

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Toronto might have more people and a larger economy, but I think if you took a poll in the rest of the world, more people if they were considering a visit to Canada, would choose Montreal over Toronto as the city they wanted to come to (I would say Vancouver would be ahead as well, maybe even of both). And I think that pisses Torontonians off lol.

It doesn't piss of off, unfortunately that's not a true statements and numbers don't back it up. I would agree more people visit Vancouver then another Canadian city for just pure vacation, in Toronto and Montreal a larger portion of guests travel to those metro's to visit friends and family, before the next chunk representing those coming just to visit as a tourist.

Pre-Covid number-

source: https://www.geoguessr.com/seterra/en/p/canada-visited
1. Toronto: 4,520,000 Visitors Per Year
2. Vancouver: 3,900,000 Visitors Per Year
3. Montreal: 2,240,000 Visitors Per Year

source: https://www.worldatlas.com/
1. Toronto
2. Vancouver
3. Montreal

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No, no. The Cirque du Soleil HQ is in Montreal. That was my point - that something like the Cirque du Soleil would never be HQ'd in Toronto.

Ohh lol.i was gonna say that would be so wrong.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I hear you, and this can go a few ways, from regional forms of meaning like Catalonia, to sheer beauty like with Rio de Janeiro.

(As an aside, though... Barcelona as the great Spanish city? I can't see it! I mean, sure, it's a region, it's a political history, it's an implied revolt against centralization and an incredible port... but a greater city than Madrid? I have never even considered this as a possible outlook! I even am someone who prefers Naples to Rome, but I couldn't put it above in any real hierarchy...)

Sorry, I guess I gave the impression that I was saying that Barcelona was THE great Spanish city. It certainly never was, at least not very a very long time. Certainly not in living memory like Montreal was once the great Canadian city.

Though I recall that in my first visits to Barcelona in the 1990s it felt a lot closer to Madrid in big city heft. I guess this was around the time of the Olympics as well.

Madrid feels larger now than it used to. Before one could have mistaken the two for almost being roughly the same size. At least that was the impression that I got.

Still, how many people do you hear say "I want to go to Madrid" vs. "I want to go to Barcelona"?

If I say it's 10 to 1 in Barcelona's favour, I am actually being generous to Madrid. It could be closer to 100 to 1.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

It doesn't piss of off, unfortunately that's not a true statements and numbers don't back it up. I would agree more people visit Vancouver then another Canadian city for just pure vacation, in Toronto and Montreal a larger portion of guests travel to those metro's to visit friends and family, before the next chunk representing those coming just to visit as a tourist.

Pre-Covid number-

source: https://www.geoguessr.com/seterra/en/p/canada-visited
1. Toronto: 4,520,000 Visitors Per Year
2. Vancouver: 3,900,000 Visitors Per Year
3. Montreal: 2,240,000 Visitors Per Year

source: https://www.worldatlas.com/
1. Toronto
2. Vancouver
3. Montreal

Montreal would perform the worst of the three in the "visiting friends and family" category since its population has less link with the rest of Canada (relatively speaking). Those family and friends links are more within Quebec or close proximity. This also explain why Montreal has relatively less domestic passengers at YUL.

[lio45]

For a fresh take on this age old question... there's ONE thing that's different this time, that we did not have access to in the previous versions of this thread...


Me: When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal?

ChatGPT: It's difficult to pinpoint an exact moment when it became apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal, as the process has been ongoing for many years and has been influenced by a variety of economic, social, and political factors.

However, it's generally accepted that Toronto began to outpace Montreal in terms of population and economic growth in the late 20th century. In the 1970s and 1980s, Toronto experienced a period of rapid growth and urbanization, while Montreal faced economic challenges and political instability.

By the 1990s, Toronto had become Canada's largest city and economic powerhouse, with a diversified economy driven by industries such as finance, technology, and media. Montreal, on the other hand, struggled with high unemployment and a declining manufacturing sector.

Today, while Montreal remains an important cultural and economic center, Toronto continues to outpace it in terms of population growth, economic activity, and global prominence.

[esquire]

^ I wonder how much of ChatGPT's material for that response was sourced from this forum

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Madrid feels larger now than it used to. Before one could have mistaken the two for almost being roughly the same size. At least that was the impression that I got.

Still, how many people do you hear say "I want to go to Madrid" vs. "I want to go to Barcelona"?

If I say it's 10 to 1 in Barcelona's favour, I am actually being generous to Madrid. It could be closer to 100 to 1.

I guess you're right. I went to Barcelona before Madrid, but when I did go to Madrid, it really impressed me. Didn't feel too far off from Paris, even.

[vanatox]

The population gap between Madrid and Barcelona is 1.2 million. Significant but not huge when comparing metros of more than 5 million people.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I guess you're right. I went to Barcelona before Madrid, but when I did go to Madrid, it really impressed me. Didn't feel too far off from Paris, even.

Madrid is half the size of Paris.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I guess you're right. I went to Barcelona before Madrid, but when I did go to Madrid, it really impressed me. Didn't feel too far off from Paris, even.

Same. At least in terms of feeling like the showplace capital of what was formerly a grand empire. Vienna also feels like this, even if it's way smaller than the other two.