Hudsons Bay Building (Winnipeg) Redevelopment

[Labroco]

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[zalf]

Isn't bidding high and eating the loss for The Greater Good, like, the very purpose of CentreVenture?

If a private buyer thought it was worthwhile at the asking price, CV wouldn't be needed. They're there to help bridge the gap between what's good for the the buyer and what's good for the city as a whole, right?

[bomberjet]

What I'm saying is. If some developer comes along who will carve up the bay into residential or something. But they want/need the parkade land to build another part to their development. Such as an apartment tower. Someone needs to do something about the parkade. If the government needs to chip in to make that happen, then do it. IMO. If the building is really an important heritage thing, spending 10 mil to make it work isnt that bad.

If not, the ugly parkade stays and the bay falls into disrepair.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Labroco

government offices should not be going into the Bay... Find a new user for the building and stop removing tenants from buildings which pay property taxes! I love the building too but enough of this subsidy business and CV overpaying for obsolete and
dis functional Real Estate.

Curious what new user you think might be found? We have been looking for one for 20 years.

Like it or not, it will take $50+million from government to make anything work. Likely more. I used to think that would never happen but the Portage Place guys somehow convinced the City and Province to cough up $40 million for a lucrative parkade and functioning mall. Seems like it isn’t that far fetched that they will find it for an empty bay.

Centre Venture is not involved with the Bay, so you don’t have to worry. I know you have issues with them for some reason. They have done a lot of good work over the years, helping property owners who want to develop their properties, but they are in charge of cobbling together something on Market Lands and that’s pretty much it these days. The money to subsidize the Bay will come directly from the government. Not sure what removed tenants you are talking about and how that relates to the bay. It’s already empty.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

PS - it was cool to see vike on The National last night, good stuff.

Ha ha. Thanks guys. Television interviews are always funny. You talk for half an hour. They repeat what you said in their own voice and splice in one line from you. Always the line you don’t want them to use.

Cool to be on the National though.

I bought that coat in that building!

[Labroco]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Curious what new user you think might be found? We have been looking for one for 20 years.

Like it or not, it will take $50+million from government to make anything work. Likely more. I used to think that would never happen but the Portage Place guys somehow convinced the City and Province to cough up $40 million for a lucrative parkade and functioning mall. Seems like it isn’t that far fetched that they will find it for an empty bay.

Centre Venture is not involved with the Bay, so you don’t have to worry. I know you have issues with them for some reason. They have done a lot of good work over the years, helping property owners who want to develop their properties, but they are in charge of cobbling together something on Market Lands and that’s pretty much it these days. The money to subsidize the Bay will come directly from the government. Not sure what removed tenants you are talking about and how that relates to the bay. It’s already empty.

I’m saying if you take $50,000,000 and fill it with government offices from other buildings downtown you are leaving tax paying building owners with empty buildings to fill the Bay with their own tax dollars!

CV should stick with working on infrastructure like waterfront drive, Lily Street or the Alexander docks.

[esquire]

I wonder if HBC will continue to pay their tax bill or are they just going to walk away and leave it all in the City's hands? Because if it's the latter, then the City will have at least two substantial commercial properties (Bay + Canada Post building) that no one can find a use for...

[CoryB]

I wonder if there might be a place for a national museum on Canada's indigenous peoples. Considering the history of Hudson's Bay there it would be a somewhat interesting reuse, Winnipeg has a high indigenous population, the current federal government leans towards giving indigenous peoples money for worth while projects, etc.

Having a museum would also not need some crazy redevelopment of the building like the commonly discussed donut model. It could also be a centre of excellence for the preservation of indigenous languages and basically build on the teaching/learning aspects.

Definitely way outside my wheelhouse on this one but it feels like there might be something to this idea if it had the right people behind it.

[esquire]

^ That is an intriguing idea... you know it's going to happen somewhere in Canada so it would great for Winnipeg to nail it down before some other place gets it. The location is great and there is also some interesting symbolism to doing something like that in a HBC building.

Although I have to wonder, with the epic museum projects we've had in Winnipeg over the last 20 years (WAG expansion, Aviation Museum, Manitoba Museum upgrades and of course the mother of them all, CMHR), is there going to be museum donation fatigue?

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I wonder if there might be a place for a national museum on Canada's indigenous peoples. Considering the history of Hudson's Bay there it would be a somewhat interesting reuse, Winnipeg has a high indigenous population, the current federal government leans towards giving indigenous peoples money for worth while projects, etc.

Having a museum would also not need some crazy redevelopment of the building like the commonly discussed donut model. It could also be a centre of excellence for the preservation of indigenous languages and basically build on the teaching/learning aspects.

Definitely way outside my wheelhouse on this one but it feels like there might be something to this idea if it had the right people behind it.

Very good idea, IMO. Part of the space could be used for historical displays, part for teaching and lecture space. Part could even be used for an indigenous traditional cooking school, or a place to teach traditional medicines. Perhaps the Universities would even consider re-locating some of their indigenous studies courses there.

It might also help concentrate the shrinking downtown retail space into existing areas, instead of spreading it out too thinly over the downtown.

[robertocarlos]

I would ask $20 million for the parkade. Not a penny less.

The Toronto owner must have seen the future. He has the city over a barrel.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by pspeid

Perhaps the Universities would even consider re-locating some of their indigenous studies courses there.

I would say if the general vision of a world class, national centre for the preservation and sharing of indigenous language, culture and history established itself in Winnipeg that it would likely be its own distinct post-secondary school/university instead of being under an existing one. That isn't to say that U of W or U of M might not transfer their existing programming to the new school, but rather that going forward it would likely be independent of them and run by the representatives from the indigenous community. It would also likely be a close partner with U of W, perhaps through a reciprocal credit agreement which would allow students from the new school to get core courses from U of W without needing all the visiting student paperwork and costs.

Another aspect I forgot to include before but would make sense would be a library with materials in the indigenous languages.

As I said before I am somewhat aware enough of the general trends on these issues but no where close enough to actually influence it. It is also the sort of project that could reasonable access the type of government funding that would be needed to make the project happen. And while it wouldn't have the same impact as straight residential it would bring a reasonable number of people to downtown on a regular basis.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by CoryB

And while it wouldn't have the same impact as straight residential it would bring a reasonable number of people to downtown on a regular basis.

With a facility like this across the street from the WAG it would make the area kind of an arts & culture zone, very suitable for the start of Memorial Blvd. and the Manitoba Legislature.

As for housing, I agree a national Indigenous museum it wouldn't directly contribute to residential in the area. However, perhaps that lack of residential may spur other new developments in the area?

One other thing that makes a museum like that attractive: Treaty 1 Territory.

[CoryB]

Let's just say the idea has been forwarded to the City Hall committee.

They are definitely in a lot better position to contact the right people to see if the idea has interest in moving forward.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Labroco

I’m saying if you take $50,000,000 and fill it with government offices from other buildings downtown you are leaving tax paying building owners with empty buildings to fill the Bay with their own tax dollars!

CV should stick with working on infrastructure like waterfront drive, Lily Street or the Alexander docks.

Ah. I see. But if the government offices are moving from the suburbs (MLCC), I would be more than happy to have them relocate.

Personally, I think the provincial money the U of M gets to build new buildings should be used to relocate some of their footprint back to the city. Then the money kills two birds with one stone. Urban renewal and university improvement.

CV's mandate is not to build roads. That's Public Works' job. It is to work with private owners of downtown properties to develop or redevelop their land or buildings most effectively. At least that used to be their mandate. They have been pretty successful at that over the years. Bringing the floor hockey arena and adjacent land owners on Waterfront together to create a larger project is one recent example. That wouldn't have happened without them leading it.

[trueviking]

A museum could be a nice part of the plan. Definitely a small part in the context of 650,000 square foot building. Like half of one floor. This was part of the U of W's scheme.

Metis on one end of the street and Indigenous people on the other side.

[Labroco]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Ah. I see. But if the government offices are moving from the suburbs (MLCC), I would be more than happy to have them relocate.

Personally, I think the provincial money the U of M gets to build new buildings should be used to relocate some of their footprint back to the city. Then the money kills two birds with one stone. Urban renewal and university improvement.

CV's mandate is not to build roads. That's Public Works' job. It is to work with private owners of downtown properties to develop or redevelop their land or buildings most effectively. At least that used to be their mandate. They have been pretty successful at that over the years. Bringing the floor hockey arena and adjacent land owners on Waterfront together to create a larger project is one recent example. That wouldn't have happened without them leading it.

1) If office relocation came from the suburbs and not core area buildings then that would be great.

2) U of M programming being relocated downtown would also be helpful.

3) CV was responsible for stick handling Waterfront Drive and overseeing improvements in the East Exchange and on Lily Avenue. They also payed The Docks to be the lead sponsor and in fact judged the submissions so I would say they do have exposure in that regard.

4) Buying the St Regis for $8,000,000 many would say does not fit in the mandate as you describe nor does all the effort put into Market Lands. Both sites if carved up without the CV development agreements would have had the parcels quickly sold and ultimately developed without any government involvement. Most City surplus lands are disposed of that way.

5) While the amalgamation of Waterfront /Duncan I am hopeful will result in a good development, both sites were actively and aggressively being pursued by private interests prior to CV stepping in, over paying and poaching them as you know.

6) The same situation is occurring today on Henry Avenue with private stakeholders being shut out of adjacent City controlled lands required to enhance their holdings and business. So much for working with area stakeholders when sites become available. Why shouldn’t Lawson or Koop have access to their adjacent lands in the area? Why should City owned slivers of land be held as bargaining chips by CV?

Many feel they are competing with CV for lands and do not see the added value of their participation.

If you want an example of how good governance is practiced, The Forks North Portage is exemplary.

[Biff]

4) CentreVenture or some form of government had to be involved in the Market
Lands project due to the caveat on the southern portion of the site remaining part of the public realm. I believe the rest of the site is being marketed as you mentioned is open to development proposals.

[Labroco]

Originally Posted by Biff

4) CentreVenture or some form of government had to be involved in the Market
Lands project due to the caveat on the southern portion of the site remaining part of the public realm. I believe the rest of the site is being marketed as you mentioned is open to development proposals.

Yes!

But that portion could have been recreation for Red River College or community green space and be done with it. The balance of the site to be sold without all the preconditions of CV development agreements. Realty taxes would be flowing by spring time.

Let the planning department determine appropriate use not CV. It’s not their mandate to do so! Millions have been spent so far on consultants and “community consultation” and they have no funding yet to build anything that I’m aware of or has been announced.

Stop competing with building owners in the area by providing brand new government subsidized commercial and retail space. You will never fill these beautiful historic buildings when government subsidized space floods the area.

Provide $20,000,000 for masonry repairs, windows, roofs, electrical, elevators and plumbing...

Best wishes over the holidays ...

[buzzg]

Red River didn't want that portion with the caveat. The northern 75% of the land is being split and sold to private developers, with CV overseeing to make sure the whole block works well together (a good thing). Also, CV already has the funding in place for the market portion, they're just finalizing the details and who will be operating it – the RFP closed Dec 11, we should hear early in 2021 how it rolls out.