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  #81  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2023, 7:21 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Ethnic origin of Montreal English speakers (2016)

Italian 120,215 19.4%
Irish 91,660 14.8%
English 86,950 14%
Scottish 72,490 11.7%
Jewish (religion, 2011) 56,495 9.1%

Indeed, and Italian is the most common ancestry group among Montreal "anglos." There's a sort of mini-NY or Northeast Corridor vibe.
I always found it odd how the Italian community in Montreal assimilated into the Anglophone community. The earlier norm was that Catholic migrants to Quebec tended to assimilate into the Quebecois ethnicity, with even a large proportion of the Irish population from the 19th century essentially blending into the Francophone identity.
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  #82  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2023, 8:22 PM
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My guess: English was the language of upward mobility and schooling increasingly became the means of upward mobility. When the Irish came in the mid-19th century, schooling was less important. That being said, a lot of Italians integrated into the francophone community too.

Irish Montrealers are about 60-40 francophone-oriented. Italian Montrealers 60-40 anglophone-oriented through my reading of the language data. Jews are split along Ashkenazi-Sephardic lines. About a fifth of Montreal Jews are Moroccan Jews.
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  #83  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2023, 8:45 PM
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Re: Boston, are there really any WWC neighborhoods in the city proper at all?. Even famously Irish Southie is 60% college-educated, as is the historic Irish enclave of Charlestown.

Boston proper is small. The white population is mostly college-educated and professional living in gentrified areas. There's nothing like South Philadelphia or NE Philadelphia or for that matter Howard Beach or Staten Island in city limits.

Last edited by Docere; Mar 25, 2023 at 9:04 PM.
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  #84  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2023, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Re: Boston, are there really any WWC neighborhoods in the city proper at all?. Even famously Irish Southie is 60% college-educated, as is the historic Irish enclave of Charlestown.
The suburbanish cop neighborhoods on the extreme southern end of town? I think the neighborhoods are West Roxbury and Hyde Park. They probably aren't economically working class, but I doubt they're particularly educated. Lots of union guys and firefighters and contractors.

Also, closer in-town, I've walked Dorchester Ave. and environs and it still seemed pretty WWC, at least as of 2007 or so. So possibly Dorchester. Might have since changed. Dorchester actually felt very gritty, tough white, like you still see in Philly, and not so much in NYC anymore.

Mattapan, to the south, is black West Indian, and Southie, to the North, is yuppie white, but both still have (or recently had) a WWC presence, I believe.
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  #85  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2023, 10:31 PM
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From the 2021 ACS.

College graduate (NHWs), city proper:

Boston 73%
Philadelphia 52.5%

Last edited by Docere; Mar 25, 2023 at 10:53 PM.
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  #86  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2023, 10:52 PM
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Looking at statisticalatlas, I can't find any white neighborhood in Boston that can really be called WWC West Roxbury is the closest (53% college-educated).

The NE Philly and South Philly white neighborhoods are still very working class.

South Philadelphia (Italian):

Packer Park 35.6%
Girard Estates 22.3%

Northeast (Irish-Polish):

Fishtown 40.5%
Bridesburg 17%
Richmond 16%

Far Northeast (Irish):

Torresdale 24.3%
Parkwood Manor 20.9%
Morell Park 20.7%


Granted, statisticalatlas is a few years out of date; but the contrast with Boston is sharp. Even adding ten points would put many of these neighborhoods at about 35%.
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  #87  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
From the 2021 ACS.

College graduate (NHWs), city proper:

Boston 73%
Philadelphia 52.5%
73% and 53% with college degrees? Wow, a lot higher than I expected.
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  #88  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 3:43 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
WASP, to me, is very much a U.S. construct, but I guess it applies to English speaking Canada as well. When I use the term "anglo" I'm usually speaking in a global colonialism context. I suspect most of the usage of "anglo" in American media is similar. Latino is an ethnic group in the U.S., like WASP, but Franco and Anglo are not.
Latino is much to wide a descriptive to deem it an ethnic distinction.
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  #89  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 3:46 PM
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Originally Posted by montréaliste View Post
Latino is much to wide a descriptive to deem it an ethnic distinction.
It seems pretty straightforward to me. It's probably the most straightforward of any category tracked by the US Census Bureau.
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  #90  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
It seems pretty straightforward to me. It's probably the most straightforward of any category tracked by the US Census Bureau.
Not really. Latino describes anyone from/ of the huge landmass south of the US. Hispanic is only slightly less vague weeding out non Spanish speaking countries. No specifics on race/ ethnicity/ national origin.
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  #91  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Not really. Latino describes anyone from/ of the huge landmass south of the US. Hispanic is only slightly less vague weeding out non Spanish speaking countries. No specifics on race/ ethnicity/ national origin.
Not everyone, but yes, Latino means a person from a country other than Spain or Portugal where Spanish or Portuguese is the dominant language. This excludes the Guyanese, French Guyanese, and Suriname. Pretty straightforward. The definitions of white, Black, and Asian are far more subjective.
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  #92  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Not everyone, but yes, Latino means a person from a country other than Spain or Portugal where Spanish or Portuguese is the dominant language. This excludes the Guyanese, French Guyanese, and Suriname. Pretty straightforward. The definitions of white, Black, and Asian are far more subjective.
Someone of Italian descent in Buenos Aires, another of Afro-Caribbean descent in the Dominican Republic, and another of predominantly Amerindian descent in Oaxaca all being labeled as Latino is about as vague as just calling them human. Latin America is a pretty diverse region and way too broad to be any kind of encompassing group.
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  #93  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 8:53 PM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Someone of Italian descent in Buenos Aires, another of Afro-Caribbean descent in the Dominican Republic, and another of predominantly Amerindian descent in Oaxaca all being labeled as Latino is about as vague as just calling them human. Latin America is a pretty diverse region and way too broad to be any kind of encompassing group.
My point exactly. Latino/a don’t define "ethnicity, but pretty much imply multi-ethnicity.
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  #94  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 8:58 PM
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Re: Philadelphia's Main Line, I believe it consists of the borough of Narberth and Lower Merion Township in Montgomery County, Radnor Township in Delaware County and Easttown and Tredyffrin Townships in Chester County. I'm not sure whether Haverford Township should be included or not.
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  #95  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 9:03 PM
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Are there any noticable differences in where in Ireland the Boston-irish and the Philly-irish immigrated from?

In the Italian case, the most of the immigrants in NY were from the South, while a larger percentage of the California-Italians were from the north, especially Genoa. The southern italians seemed to be more traditional and held on to their cultures for lomger.
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  #96  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Someone of Italian descent in Buenos Aires, another of Afro-Caribbean descent in the Dominican Republic, and another of predominantly Amerindian descent in Oaxaca all being labeled as Latino is about as vague as just calling them human. Latin America is a pretty diverse region and way too broad to be any kind of encompassing group.
Except that's not how it works--people aren't getting "labeled" as Latino, they are self-identifying as Latino. Or not. It's up to each of us to decide for ourselves how we want to identify our race and/or ethnicity to the Census Bureau. And while it is perhaps imprecise, it is likely no less precise than if the government were somehow deciding what racial or ethnic identity it should assign to people, whether they agreed or not.
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  #97  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 10:25 PM
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It's up to each of us to decide for ourselves how we want to identify our race and/or ethnicity to the Census Bureau.
that's why i always check other and write-in "Chicagoan".

it's the only label that makes any sense for me cuz we've been here forever.
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  #98  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2023, 11:21 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Originally Posted by ilcapo View Post
Are there any noticable differences in where in Ireland the Boston-irish and the Philly-irish immigrated from?

In the Italian case, the most of the immigrants in NY were from the South, while a larger percentage of the California-Italians were from the north, especially Genoa. The southern italians seemed to be more traditional and held on to their cultures for lomger.
San Francisco attracted a lot of Italian immigrants but they seem to have completely assimilated. There's no Italian neighborhoods or suburbs, no visible Italian American subculture there as far as I can tell. Just a historic Little Italy in North Beach. It's quite possible it was a northern Italian population made it easier to assimilate.
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  #99  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
96k irish born living in nyc as of 2021.
Does that include Northern Ireland?

Either way, that's quite impressive.
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  #100  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 1:04 AM
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From ACS' new data table...

"Detailed ancestry — first entry" is, I presume, "people reporting single ancestry."


Total Boston City--Dorchester & South Boston PUMA, Massachusetts

Irish
16,798

English
5,172

English + American
5,801

Italian
5,132


Total Boston City--Allston, Brighton & Fenway PUMA; Massachusetts

Irish
8,764

English
4,636

English + American
6,273

Italian
6,642


Total Boston City--Back Bay, Beacon Hill, Charlestown, East Boston, Central & South End PUMA; Massachusetts

Irish
19,923

English
4,737

English + American
6,374

Italian
11,456


Total Boston City--Mattapan & Roxbury PUMA, Massachusetts

Irish
2,551

English
672

English + American
2,309

Italian
1,205


Total Boston City--Hyde Park, Jamaica Plain, Roslindale & West Roxbury PUMA; Massachusetts

Irish
17,527

English
5,461

English + American
7,098

Italian
5,943
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