CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by twister244

So - Is work on the new satellites officially underway? I landed from Paris yesterday and there was a ton of excavation work occurring near the end of B. Perhaps it's prep work, but my friend who works for United makes it sound like they are working on a new tram system. I take that info with a grain of salt.

Also, there appears to be work on L, where there's a small addition in the rendering posted.

Pretty sure it is just taxiway work to make room for S-1, since S-1 will block the primary taxiways going around the terminal complex.

The latest timeline that I can find says S-1 will be completed in 2027 and S-2 in 2028. Terminal 2 will be demolished in phases starting in 2026. I'd guess the E-concourse will go first to make way for taxiways coming out of the B-C alley, since the current entrance to the alley between B and T2 will be significantly impeded by S-1 construction.

Given the lack of a tunnel between S1 and the OGT until 2030 at the earliest I doubt we'll see AA use S-1 or S-2 until the OGT is complete. There won't be a way for someone to walk from T3 to S1 or S2 without going through the B-C tunnel.

[takascar]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

Pretty sure it is just taxiway work to make room for S-1, since S-1 will block the primary taxiways going around the terminal complex.

The latest timeline that I can find says S-1 will be completed in 2027 and S-2 in 2028. Terminal 2 will be demolished in phases starting in 2026. I'd guess the E-concourse will go first to make way for taxiways coming out of the B-C alley, since the current entrance to the alley between B and T2 will be significantly impeded by S-1 construction.

Given the lack of a tunnel between S1 and the OGT until 2030 at the earliest I doubt we'll see AA use S-1 or S-2 until the OGT is complete. There won't be a way for someone to walk from T3 to S1 or S2 without going through the B-C tunnel.

Does anyone have a more detailed timeline for when S-1 construction will start? Sounds like they need to start soon if they want to meet these deadlines.

Usually, there are call-outs on contractor websites when they are about to start this kind of work.

[gsmith318]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

Pretty sure it is just taxiway work to make room for S-1, since S-1 will block the primary taxiways going around the terminal complex.

The latest timeline that I can find says S-1 will be completed in 2027 and S-2 in 2028. Terminal 2 will be demolished in phases starting in 2026. I'd guess the E-concourse will go first to make way for taxiways coming out of the B-C alley, since the current entrance to the alley between B and T2 will be significantly impeded by S-1 construction.

Given the lack of a tunnel between S1 and the OGT until 2030 at the earliest I doubt we'll see AA use S-1 or S-2 until the OGT is complete. There won't be a way for someone to walk from T3 to S1 or S2 without going through the B-C tunnel.

I'm pretty sure this is bid package 32 which is the civil work to prep for the temporary gates needed at C so that they can build satellite 1. This includes pavement and underground electric/sewer work. I imagine they won't start on satellite 1 until the temp gates are ready at C. Since satellite 1 connects to C, they need to close some gates and are building a temporary spur (See bid package 34 diagram at link below) for those lost gates while S1 is built.

Good images under Upcoming Projects to see what they are doing under 32 and 34 if you scroll down here: https://www.tpapord.com/projects/

If you want to see what is going on out there, you can see all of the projects that are out to bid or awarded which will give you some indication of what is going on around there:
https://www.tpapord.com/projects/upc...opportunities/

[Tom In Chicago]

^Thanks for the update and links. . . great information regarding gate relocation at satellite C. . .

. . .

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

Given the lack of a tunnel between S1 and the OGT until 2030 at the earliest I doubt we'll see AA use S-1 or S-2 until the OGT is complete. There won't be a way for someone to walk from T3 to S1 or S2 without going through the B-C tunnel.

I assume they could run a bus across the taxiway during construction, no?

Probably they will find a way to let AA passengers check in at T1 so they can start using the S-1 gates, but they will need a bus for connecting passengers from their other gates until the OGT is completed.

[Briguy]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

Pretty sure it is just taxiway work to make room for S-1, since S-1 will block the primary taxiways going around the terminal complex.

The latest timeline that I can find says S-1 will be completed in 2027 and S-2 in 2028. Terminal 2 will be demolished in phases starting in 2026. I'd guess the E-concourse will go first to make way for taxiways coming out of the B-C alley, since the current entrance to the alley between B and T2 will be significantly impeded by S-1 construction.

Given the lack of a tunnel between S1 and the OGT until 2030 at the earliest I doubt we'll see AA use S-1 or S-2 until the OGT is complete. There won't be a way for someone to walk from T3 to S1 or S2 without going through the B-C tunnel.

I believe S1 and s2 will be exclusively united. AA will get a few gates at the new terminal 2 but will largely be unchanged. Major bummer for AA flyers. Might make me switch to united eventually.

[takascar]

Originally Posted by Briguy

I believe S1 and s2 will be exclusively united. AA will get a few gates at the new terminal 2 but will largely be unchanged. Major bummer for AA flyers. Might make me switch to united eventually.

Terminal 3 isn't that bad - at least its been remodeled more recently than T2.

I'm surprised AA isn't trying to cut a deal with the city to do some sort of
makeover of T3. They did get the extra "stinger" gates in L concourse, so that's something

[Briguy]

Originally Posted by takascar

Terminal 3 isn't that bad - at least its been remodeled more recently than T2.

I'm surprised AA isn't trying to cut a deal with the city to do some sort of
makeover of T3. They did get the extra "stinger" gates in L concourse, so that's something

Very cosmetic renovation planned, mostly security reconfiguration.

https://chicagoyimby.com/2023/03/fun...l-airport.html

[twister244]

A few nuggets.....

According to @tpapord on IG - They have completed work on taxi reconfigs in prep for the sat construction. So... In theory, we just need to get the temporary gates in place for a groundbreaking. I haven't been to C lately, so I have no idea if work on the temporary gates has commenced or not. That appears to be the only thing separating us from official satellite construction. If I am wrong, please correct me.

I realized the construction on L I saw last month was the Stinger addition (per the 21 rendering) of three (?) gates.

On the airline front.... It appears Avianca may be coming back to O'hare?
https://aeroxplorer.com/articles/avi...and-canada.php

Avianca would resume flights to two key destinations in the United States, Chicago (ORD) and Newark (EWR), under the proposal.

This article also lists the following cities on the application:
- Barranquilla
- Bogota
- Cali
- Cartagena
- Medellin

Who knows if this goes through, but it's a start to get more S. America flights in.

While BA is going to extend their A380 flights until next Winter, they may be working to phase the A380 out at O'Hare and replace it with the 777.

https://simpleflying.com/british-air...-ohare-dulles/

While subject to change, Chicago is not scheduled to see the A380 next summer: the 777-300ER is scheduled on BA295/BA294.

Again, this is always subject to change given trends, etc.

Finally, I dig some avgeek digging the other night and noticed an interesting trend. Frontier Airlines has really scaled back their presence at O'Hare. If you lookup their flights out of O'hare, they only run four flights a day now:
https://www.airport-ohare.com/depart...ntier-airlines

What's more interesting is Frontier is now operating a larger number out of MDW of around 11 flights:
https://www.midway-airport.com/mdw-d...ntier-airlines
So, up until a few minutes ago, MDW was bursting at the seems with SW running out of space, but suddenly MDW has the room there to add 11 flights? Not sure what to make of it, but I find it to be an interesting observation.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by twister244

A few nuggets.....

According to @tpapord on IG - They have completed work on taxi reconfigs in prep for the sat construction. So... In theory, we just need to get the temporary gates in place for a groundbreaking. I haven't been to C lately, so I have no idea if work on the temporary gates has commenced or not. That appears to be the only thing separating us from official satellite construction. If I am wrong, please correct me.

I realized the construction on L I saw last month was the Stinger addition (per the 21 rendering) of three (?) gates.

I recently had a layover at O'Hare (PHL-ORD-SLC) and the ORD-SLC flight was out of one of the gates at the southern end of the C concourse. They had a section closed off for construction with the ORD21 branding but it looked like the normal gates were still in place so I'm not sure if that's a sign that the temporary gates are coming soon or if it's just new shops/renovation to the C concourse.

Originally Posted by twister244

On the airline front.... It appears Avianca may be coming back to O'hare?
https://aeroxplorer.com/articles/avi...and-canada.php



This article also lists the following cities on the application:
- Barranquilla
- Bogota
- Cali
- Cartagena
- Medellin

Who knows if this goes through, but it's a start to get more S. America flights in.

Great to hear! Correct me if I'm wrong but currently the only South America flight out of O'Hare is to São Paulo in Brazil?

Originally Posted by twister244

While BA is going to extend their A380 flights until next Winter, they may be working to phase the A380 out at O'Hare and replace it with the 777.

https://simpleflying.com/british-air...-ohare-dulles/


Again, this is always subject to change given trends, etc.

Wouldn't give much thought to this. The same was true this summer and last summer where BA originally had B777s or A350s scheduled for O'Hare and then later the schedules were updated to show an A380. Then again, I don't know how much BA is able to fill an A380 out of ORD but given that they've been sending a daily A380 to ORD since last summer (with the exception of a break in Jan-Feb), I'd imagine they are doing fine.

I'm curious if any other airlines would ever consider flying the A380 to ORD. The most likely contenders to me would be Emirates and Lufthansa, but Emirates seems reluctant for whatever reason and Lufthansa departs from Terminal 1 which doesn't have an A380 gate but then again, couldn't they just move their departures to Terminal 5 like BA?

Originally Posted by twister244

Finally, I dig some avgeek digging the other night and noticed an interesting trend. Frontier Airlines has really scaled back their presence at O'Hare. If you lookup their flights out of O'hare, they only run four flights a day now:
https://www.airport-ohare.com/depart...ntier-airlines

What's more interesting is Frontier is now operating a larger number out of MDW of around 11 flights:
https://www.midway-airport.com/mdw-d...ntier-airlines
So, up until a few minutes ago, MDW was bursting at the seems with SW running out of space, but suddenly MDW has the room there to add 11 flights? Not sure what to make of it, but I find it to be an interesting observation.

It sounds like MDW is going to be the LCC hub for Chicago. I guess it's now only Spirit that has their full Chicago presence at O'Hare. I wonder though if Frontier was incentivized to move more of their operations to MDW since Terminal 5 is very crowded now between Delta's gates and having to fight with Southwest and the International carriers for the common use gates.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

It sounds like MDW is going to be the LCC hub for Chicago. I guess it's now only Spirit that has their full Chicago presence at O'Hare. I wonder though if Frontier was incentivized to move more of their operations to MDW since Terminal 5 is very crowded now between Delta's gates and having to fight with Southwest and the International carriers for the common use gates.

I don't view it quite like that.

I view Frontier's move as a means to be able to fill their planes by tapping into a different segment of the Chicago market. Maybe they weren't filling their flights at O'Hare given many of their routes have so many other UA/AA routes at prices that aren't that expensive when all things considered. At MDW though, there are probably several people in the metro that don't want to haul ass to O'Hare when they can just hop on a Frontier flight if they are going to city XXX for the weekend. It's worth noting that there have been several pressers over the past six months where Frontier keeps adding routes to MDW. So.... They feel like they have a better business model at MDW.

At the same time, I have to wonder if Southwest had some under performing routes at MDW, so they are taking a stab at directly competing against UA/AA domestic flights. I really don't view Southwest as a competitor to other LCC as they really aren't LCC if you actually look at their ticket fares. Also, the reason I think they are trying to peel some customers away from UA and AA is just by looking at ticket fares between Southwest and UA/AA. For example, if you lookup tickets from ORD to DIA for tomorrow, UA has a flight at 12:48 PM that's $301/$441 for economy/business. Southwest has a flight at 12:30 that's $301/$431 for economy/business. For fun, I looked up Baltimore for next January (I have a conference I'm going to). Southwest has three flights at $139/$154/$214/$264. United also has three flights that day at $139/$169/$199/$259. That's no coincidence.......

Whether Southwest is successful remains to be seen. They are appealing to the casual flyer that isn't point savvy and isn't a reward member with UA/AA.

I just don't buy the narrative that they were looking to expand, and that's why they came to O'Hare. If that was the case, they wouldn't be giving up gate space to Frontier at Midway. It says they are trying to rethink their Chicago market approach.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by twister244

Whether Southwest is successful remains to be seen. They are appealing to the casual flyer that isn't point savvy and isn't a reward member with UA/AA.

.

I'm a frequent business traveler and I prefer Southwest because a) Midway is easier to fly in and out of. b) It's extremely easy to change flights or modify a flight on Southwest.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

I'm a frequent business traveler and I prefer Southwest because a) Midway is easier to fly in and out of. b) It's extremely easy to change flights or modify a flight on Southwest.

Ok, but you were already a Southwest business traveler that was already going to Midway. I'm talking about people that are existing UA/AA travelers. If you're a business traveler on UA/AA, are you gonna switch entirely over to Southwest? Unless they cover all of the same airports you normally go to on UA/AA, my guess is no.

Also remember, Southwest isn't a member of any alliance, nor do they have any lounges. I'm not saying there aren't folks that won't make the switch, but I just don't see that many folks making that switch. Especially with their epic meltdown last Winter. We will see though... At the end of the day, it might be helping to keep UA/AA ticket prices at bay with the competition, so I'm happy with that as a consumer.

[twister244]

Really solid restaurant announcement for T5:

https://www.dailyherald.com/business...-nosh-at-ohare

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by twister244

Really solid restaurant announcement for T5:

https://www.dailyherald.com/business...-nosh-at-ohare

Indeed. I eat food from Dearborn way too often....

[takascar]

Flew from and back to ORD last week. Passed by the C-Concourse when taxiing back to our gate and was able to see the status of construction. They have removed two jet bridges and have barricaded the area where they are supposed to build the temporary gates. There is also construction equipment digging up the pavement in that area, so the construction of the temporary gates is in progress

[twister244]

Originally Posted by takascar

Flew from and back to ORD last week. Passed by the C-Concourse when taxiing back to our gate and was able to see the status of construction. They have removed two jet bridges and have barricaded the area where they are supposed to build the temporary gates. There is also construction equipment digging up the pavement in that area, so the construction of the temporary gates is in progress

Sweet! That means we are probably close to an actual ground breaking of the sats here soon (weeks at best). Slight delay from Spring, but still good to see progress.

Saw this editorial pop up on my feed. Nothing really newsworthy in here, except there is some ground truth to what some anecdotal observations have shown, which is AA has pulled back some from O'Hare.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opini...rb4-story.html

You can’t fly on American nonstop from Chicago to Tokyo; Tel Aviv, Israel; or Shanghai, and outside of flights to London, where it works with British Airways, the roster of European nonstops on American “metal” from Chicago now pales in comparison with flights offered by United Airlines in its home city. And it pales in terms of what American was offerings before: The number of seats offered each month by American in Chicago is down, says airline industry blog Cranky Flier, some 20% to 25% from its peak, notwithstanding the much-reported boom in air travel.

To me, this article does seem to have a bit of a pro AA bias to it as it's trying to blame the current situation with Terminal 5 for AA moving it's wide body flights away from O'Hare. Maybe there's some truth to that, but maybe AA isn't doing as good as UA, and they are simply consolidating resources to their hubs to cut costs? It seems to reflect the latter with a quick search:

https://simpleflying.com/american-ai...er-operations/

The only news of UA route cuts I have seen is from NYC, but that's because of the shortage of air traffic controllers and the meltdowns that happened starting with Newark. Sucks to see AA pulling back, but you can't blame them if they are struggling a bit. And as has been noted before, AA serves to benefit the least from the O'hare 21 program. The OGT only benefits the One World carriers and passengers that need to connect from AA in T3 to One World or back. Delta got a new gig over in T5, Southwest has the shiny new addition to play with at T5, and UA is getting brand new sats. AA gets?....... a few new stinger gates? lol

[SnowFire]

Originally Posted by twister244

Sweet! That means we are probably close to an actual ground breaking of the sats here soon (weeks at best). Slight delay from Spring, but still good to see progress.

Saw this editorial pop up on my feed. Nothing really newsworthy in here, except there is some ground truth to what some anecdotal observations have shown, which is AA has pulled back some from O'Hare.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opini...rb4-story.html



To me, this article does seem to have a bit of a pro AA bias to it as it's trying to blame the current situation with Terminal 5 for AA moving it's wide body flights away from O'Hare. Maybe there's some truth to that, but maybe AA isn't doing as good as UA, and they are simply consolidating resources to their hubs to cut costs? It seems to reflect the latter with a quick search:

https://simpleflying.com/american-ai...er-operations/

The only news of UA route cuts I have seen is from NYC, but that's because of the shortage of air traffic controllers and the meltdowns that happened starting with Newark. Sucks to see AA pulling back, but you can't blame them if they are struggling a bit. And as has been noted before, AA serves to benefit the least from the O'hare 21 program. The OGT only benefits the One World carriers and passengers that need to connect from AA in T3 to One World or back. Delta got a new gig over in T5, Southwest has the shiny new addition to play with at T5, and UA is getting brand new sats. AA gets?....... a few new stinger gates? lol

Pretty sure you cant do chicago to anywhere in china nonstop period.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by SnowFire

Pretty sure you cant do chicago to anywhere in china nonstop period.

That's because of Covid and CCP policies....... Has nothing to do with O'Hare or any of the carriers here. Prior to Covid, there were several China flights.

[SnowFire]

Originally Posted by twister244

That's because of Covid and CCP policies....... Has nothing to do with O'Hare or any of the carriers here. Prior to Covid, there were several China flights.

Yes i know there were flights. Its a weird comparison to put in the article though.