Detached Townhomes & What Houston Is Doing RIght

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Segun

Or taking transit. With this is mind - Is there a neighborhood in the US, even in the most urban places, whose vibrant commercial strip is completely filled with the locals from that neighborhood?

I think this is pretty standard in the NYC outer boroughs, and a few areas of Northern NJ, at least for smaller-scale districts.

I mean, who is shopping on Ave. J in Brooklyn? The businesses are all closed on the Sabbath, parking is extremely limited, so I imagine the local Orthodox are the overwhelming majority of patrons.

Major hubs, like Bergenline Ave. in NJ, 86th Street in Brooklyn, Flushing or Jamaica in Queens, Fordham Rd. or Hub in Bronx, probably draw from further afield, and get lots of transit riders and some drivers.

[mrnyc]

^ pitkin ave for brownsville, brooklyn comes to mind first. a classic high street, there is nothing there except for locals. its good for that with fast food, grocery, deli, shops and all that kind of thing. the wonderfully decrepit old loews pitkin movie theater was finally sold a few years ago and turned into a commercial building with charter schools i think -- if reno'd back as a grand theater that might have been the only draw for outsiders.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Segun

I feel as if most of the discussion of urban design should revolve more around the access to walkable retail. I’ve been to numerous neighborhoods with vibrant commercial strips with single family homes, with or without driveways.

100% this.

I think it's a positive thing that some of Houston's neighborhoods are 'growing up'. If you look at some of the streetviews that have been posted here, these townhomes are going up in areas that almost looked rural before, despite being in the center of the city. Open ditches on the side of the roads, few sidewalks, houses that look like they were dropped in from the country. Very strange to see that type of development in the city, and even stranger to see it side by side with these new townhomes. But at least this represents densification (assuming population density is increasing along with structural density).

I run into trouble with Houston when I look to its commercial corridors. I honestly have trouble finding any commercial districts that aren't totally auto-centric. Even Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta have multiple commercial nodes that are traditionally walkable: i.e. buildings built to the sidewalk, parking either absent or behind buildings, no/few curb cuts or drive-thru places, etc. When I've looked around Houston, there is essentially nothing at all that resembles this, outside of downtown. It's crazy, really. So even if you pack the residential neighborhoods of Houston with these townhomes, are the residents really going to be walking anywhere when the commercial districts look like this? https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7705...7i16384!8i8192

I know this criticism might seem weird coming from someone who lives in LA, as it's true that LA has a ton of nasty commercial arterials, and walkability suffers as a result of that. But at least LA also has a ton of great, or at least serviceable, pedestrian-oriented commercial districts. Houston, to my knowledge, has almost none. That's why the densification of the neighborhoods there feels a bit like lipstick on a pig. The needle really isn't moving in terms of Houston becoming more functionally urban.

[mrnyc]

^ you wonder why they even bothered with sidewalks with that google map example.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by edale

100% this.

I think it's a positive thing that some of Houston's neighborhoods are 'growing up'. If you look at some of the streetviews that have been posted here, these townhomes are going up in areas that almost looked rural before, despite being in the center of the city. Open ditches on the side of the roads, few sidewalks, houses that look like they were dropped in from the country. Very strange to see that type of development in the city, and even stranger to see it side by side with these new townhomes. But at least this represents densification (assuming population density is increasing along with structural density).

I run into trouble with Houston when I look to its commercial corridors. I honestly have trouble finding any commercial districts that aren't totally auto-centric. Even Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta have multiple commercial nodes that are traditionally walkable: i.e. buildings built to the sidewalk, parking either absent or behind buildings, no/few curb cuts or drive-thru places, etc. When I've looked around Houston, there is essentially nothing at all that resembles this, outside of downtown. It's crazy, really. So even if you pack the residential neighborhoods of Houston with these townhomes, are the residents really going to be walking anywhere when the commercial districts look like this? https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7705...7i16384!8i8192

The commercial corridors are underwhelming mostly because they are pretty decentralized and just weren't kept up with. Like I said, Houston and Detroit are pretty similar in their bombed/neglected cores. The more urban sections are usually just several blocks.

Rice Military (the area you and other people keep referencing) is probably the worst of both worlds with rapid growth and zero thought towards infrastructure. Montrose, Upper Kirby and the Heights have had the high growth, decent infrastructure (less so Montrose) with small nooks of retail. I've lived in Montrose and only used my car to get to work because there's enough retail when you can walk or you use the street grid to ride a bike.

I know this criticism might seem weird coming from someone who lives in LA, as it's true that LA has a ton of nasty commercial arterials, and walkability suffers as a result of that. But at least LA also has a ton of great, or at least serviceable, pedestrian-oriented commercial districts. Houston, to my knowledge, has almost none. That's why the densification of the neighborhoods there feels a bit like lipstick on a pig. The needle really isn't moving in terms of Houston becoming more functionally urban.

LA has significantly more pre automobile development and has clearly kept up with it.

The needle is moving but you just wouldn't understand/see it because it's over time. The inner core neighborhoods have better infrastructure and retail than a decade ago and they are still upgrading stuff while adding more residents.

Houston is building what people want because people like living close to things while infrastructure and QOL follows.

[Ant131531]

People have to remember Houston is a city of oil and gas. Its a city that thrives when people are driving, not walking and i dont mean just Houston. I mean EVERYWHERE in the world. When oil prices are up, the region goes boom and vice versa.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ you wonder why they even bothered with sidewalks with that google map example.

From a NYC perspective sure.... but that area actually gets pretty crowded thursday, friday, saturday night with folks getting dropped off by ubers and bar hopping. Walking around a 5 block radius isn't the end of the world on Washington Ave.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

People have to remember Houston is a city of oil and gas. Its a city that thrives when people are driving, not walking and i dont mean just Houston. I mean EVERYWHERE in the world. When oil prices are up, the region goes boom and vice versa.

I guess oil and gas folks prefer building more central units than ATL's model urban growth with its such [sarcasm]high percentage of commuters[/sarcasm].

[badrunner]

I actually think that frontage roads in Houston limit its urban potential. So much of the city's retail is oriented towards the freeways, instead of its arterials. When you drive through Houston on the freeway, you get the impression of driving through one giant strip mall.

[benp]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

I guess oil and gas folks prefer building more central units than ATL's model urban growth with its such [sarcasm]high percentage of commuters[/sarcasm].

ExxonMobil did consolidate its offices in Houston to a central location - unfortunately that location is a 385 acre wooded campus located 25 miles from its former HQ location in downtown Houston.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by benp

ExxonMobil did consolidate its offices in Houston to a central location - unfortunately that location is a 385 acre wooded campus located 25 miles from its former HQ location in downtown Houston.

Locating to the suburbs/exurbs isn’t a oil and gas industry thing by any stretch. Chevron consolidated more employees in downtown and sold off many of its suburban properties. Downtown’s issue is the major wave of office buildings built in the 70s and 80s are less and less competitive.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by badrunner

I actually think that frontage roads in Houston limit its urban potential. So much of the city's retail is oriented towards the freeways, instead of its arterials. When you drive through Houston on the freeway, you get the impression of driving through one giant strip mall.

That’s true but it’s not only the one in that regard. DFW just did a better job of maintaining its inner city commercial corridors despite having the exact same freeway setup.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by dave8721

Those are just townhomes. The Houston ones are detached from each other. We have tons of both types too. The only difference in Houston's case would be the cheap wood-frame part. Don't they get hurricanes in Houston? Multi-story wood-frame buildings are a no-no down here due to hurricanes, they have been banned in South Florida for 30 years.

They were doing this in San Francisco in the 1870s.


https://www.quickenloans.com/learn/zero-lot-line

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ pitkin ave for brownsville, brooklyn comes to mind first. a classic high street, there is nothing there except for locals. its good for that with fast food, grocery, deli, shops and all that kind of thing. the wonderfully decrepit old loews pitkin movie theater was finally sold a few years ago and turned into a commercial building with charter schools i think -- if reno'd back as a grand theater that might have been the only draw for outsiders.

Yeah, Pitkin Ave. runs through probably the "worst" blocks in NYC. But it has remained vibrant, with local patronage. The residents are working class, at best, but they still gotta buy stuff. And they generally don't have cars, so shop local.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by The North One

lol okay. I'm just making a casual observation of the urbanism of these two cities in relation to each other. Somebody already mentioned and compared Houston to LA so I think it's relevant, I know it's not new construction.

This example is right next to DTLA: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0484...7i16384!8i8192

I do agree though that it gets a lot better closer to the core because you have way more pre-war development around that's walkable and doesn't have that sort of thing.

Okay nothing. Again you step outside the topic of this thread entirely in order to compare apples to oranges, and only to serve your weird anti-California agenda. As if your cherrypicked 65-year old apartment building in Los Angeles is an apt analogy to the new construction of detached townhomes in Houston's Inner Loop. It's not. Just stop.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by JManc

Most of these are fairly decent sized townhomes; 3 bedrooms and up. Even if someone were more urban oriented, having ample parking is probably still ideal should they want maximize appreciation and sell at some point. There should be smaller options (2 bedroom or less) that aren't as demanding for parking but demand is still probably soft...though growing.

Why is Houston so different? You seem consistently pessimistic that Houston can do anything urban. I think it can. And I gather that the local rules are holding it back.

Other cities like mine are full of three-bedroom townhouses with a single parking space each.

Real estate value isn't about being ok to the average person. It's about being the #1 choice for a subset of people. One fewer parking space would either allow a better price point or more value in other ways.

PS, I like the fact that these are increasing density, which is certainly an ingredient for walkability including walkable retail.

It's hard to tie a certain density to walkable retail that doesn't have much parking. Much relates to stuff like sidewalk quality, easy crossings, concentration of retail, transit, and so on. And "density" isn't just residents but also workers, visitors, etc. But 20,000 per square mile with decent sidewalks will on average deserve decent clusters here and there.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by mhays

And I gather that the local rules are holding it back.

This may be wildly incorrect, but I don't believe there are any local codes in Houston at all demanding parking for single family housing. Two-car garages are simply the expectation of the market.

[mhays]

I keep hearing about neighborhood-specific covenants that aren't part of the city code.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

People have to remember Houston is a city of oil and gas. Its a city that thrives when people are driving, not walking and i dont mean just Houston. I mean EVERYWHERE in the world. When oil prices are up, the region goes boom and vice versa.

That's a bad excuse.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by mhays

I keep hearing about neighborhood-specific covenants that aren't part of the city code.

Not in the neighborhoods where these townhouses are going up.