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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 1:39 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
This is how you get a new wave of socialist. Absolutely sick. In nine counties I would be spending over 1 million dollars, or need to make around 250-300k and have 200k for a downpayment? LOL
Most homebuyers already own, or have family that owns. So the relative price is largely irrelevant.

My aunt's coastal OC neighborhood has lots of retired nurses, teachers, firefighters and cops. You can't touch real estate in her area for less than $3.5 million or so. Their middle class kids buy in the same neighborhoods using the boomer equity.

Yeah, if you're moving into her neighborhood from elsewhere, you need serious $$. But the vast majority of neighbors are longtime locals, who just hit the jackpot based on when they bought into coastal CA.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 4:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
This is how you get a new wave of socialist. Absolutely sick. In nine counties I would be spending over 1 million dollars, or need to make around 250-300k and have 200k for a downpayment? LOL
So you're telling me unfettered market capitalism inevitably leads to socialism? Thank you Mr. Karl Marx.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 5:05 PM
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Their middle class kids buy in the same neighborhoods using the boomer equity.
my midwesternness is showing, but i bristle a bit at the notion that to purchase a first home, one can only do so on the back of their parents' generosity.

out here, if you wanna buy a house, "then work hard and buy it your damn self".
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
So you're telling me unfettered market capitalism inevitably leads to socialism? Thank you Mr. Karl Marx.
This is anything but unfettered capitalism. Home builders were blocked by local governments from adding housing units and then mandated to subsidize rents to counteract the results of the obstinate land use policies. In this case the local and state governments are the cause and the solution.
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 8:40 PM
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So you're telling me unfettered market capitalism inevitably leads to socialism? Thank you Mr. Karl Marx.
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Reverberation View Post
This is anything but unfettered capitalism. Home builders were blocked by local governments from adding housing units and then mandated to subsidize rents to counteract the results of the obstinate land use policies. In this case the local and state governments are the cause and the solution.
I think geography is a bigger reason than local government.



There's literally nowhere to build.
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Reverberation View Post
This is anything but unfettered capitalism. Home builders were blocked by local governments from adding housing units and then mandated to subsidize rents to counteract the results of the obstinate land use policies. In this case the local and state governments are the cause and the solution.
False. Local governments are responsive to local market forces, and they serve their constituents, not future potential constituents or the "greater good."

In a capitalist system, $ = political clout. Homeowners have it and they leverage it in order to gain even more money and power. Does that sound familiar?
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
False. Local governments are responsive to local market forces, and they serve their constituents, not future potential constituents or the "greater good."
Exactly. There is no problem here. Homeowners are thrilled.

If someone is so offended at families getting rich off property, most of the country has crap housing appreciation.
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 9:32 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
False. Local governments are responsive to local market forces, and they serve their constituents, not future potential constituents or the "greater good."

In a capitalist system, $ = political clout. Homeowners have it and they leverage it in order to gain even more money and power. Does that sound familiar?
I don't agree with this. If it were being driven by the free market then the market would dictate the way the land is used, not homeowners "protecting" their property. In fact, the zoning laws is probably depressing the value of property.

The Fulton Street corridor of Brooklyn was re-zoned about a decade ago to allow taller buildings to be built. That zoning change immediately made all the property in the area worth way more than it was before, because developers could build more units on a lot. Within a decade you had changes like this:

2009: https://goo.gl/maps/gxj7cF22kHvSnz3v6
2020: https://goo.gl/maps/LZ7BbHL5zjnzipC37

2009: https://goo.gl/maps/gAsFpYe9UoGWmAtf7
2020: https://goo.gl/maps/8hhnrDuHCaJapT26A

2009: https://goo.gl/maps/bRTDcpAiRNqAuwXYA
2020: https://goo.gl/maps/he6FsnwG7Kfh3mPD8
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 9:39 PM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
my midwesternness is showing, but i bristle a bit at the notion that to purchase a first home, one can only do so on the back of their parents' generosity.

out here, if you wanna buy a house, "then work hard and buy it your damn self".
Yeah, that's a pretty common problem west of the Rockies (and Denver, which is east of the Rockies) and it's only getting worse. I live in one such area (Flagstaff/Northern Arizona), but even places like Phoenix are rapidly becoming unaffordable.

My personal favorite is "if you don't like it, move." Yup, my gf and I will just pack up our lives and move somewhere cheaper, farther away from our friends and families. What's happening isn't sustainable and if/when the market goes belly-up (we're good for at least one of those in Arizona every decade), it's gonna get ugly.
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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't agree with this
You totally missed the part about local market forces and had to go across the country for an example. In a free market, customer preferences matter. Local demand is mostly for SFHs with space and privacy. If the majority of the customer base wanted to turn California into Brooklyn then the free market will rise to fill that demand, and it will happen. Note that the "customer base" in this case is people with the means to buy. In a free market, their preferences matter, not those of housing activists and urban enthusiasts. The free market doesn't exist for the "greater good" or to house everyone who wants to live in California.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
You totally missed the part about local market forces and had to go across the country for an example. In a free market, customer preferences matter. Local demand is mostly for SFHs with space and privacy. If the majority of the customer base wanted to turn California into Brooklyn then the free market will rise to fill that demand, and it will happen. Note that the "customer base" in this case is people with the means to buy. In a free market, their preferences matter, not those of housing activists and urban enthusiasts. The free market doesn't exist for the "greater good" or to house everyone who wants to live in California.
But it's not local "market" forces. It's local "policy" forces. If they changed policy in any expensive Silicon Valley suburb to allow for different land usage, I guarantee you that lots would immediately be used differently.
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 10:45 PM
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In a free market, customer preferences matter. Local demand is mostly for SFHs with space and privacy.
Free market is very local-culture dependent, then...

When I think about it, I believe if Paris was a total free market, it would look like Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, those brand new towns grown out of nothing but oil in the middle of a sorry desert in the Arabian Peninsula.
We'd have destroyed 3 quarters of the city to accommodate people in bland, wannabe shiny skyscrapers, then people in the world would call us criminal douches and would despise us even more than they already do.

The free market hates regulations and always tends to push them backward, sometimes rightfully.
But it has to be democratically regulated and balanced anyway. Otherwise it goes fucked up and ugly like chaos.

Would you live in Dubai? Maybe you'd stay there for a couple of weeks, but you'd quickly find it soulless, soul-sucking and dangerously ugly.
I mean, even their luxury skyscrapers look like errors.
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
But it's not local "market" forces. It's local "policy" forces. If they changed policy in any expensive Silicon Valley suburb to allow for different land usage, I guarantee you that lots would immediately be used differently.
Who makes local zoning laws and who elects those people? Who pays their salaries?
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
When I think about it, I believe if Paris was a total free market, it would look like Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha
Only if that's what the people of Paris really want, but I suspect there will still be a strong preservationist mindset (or the nimby mindset enforced via local zoning laws) and things won't change too much. Those housing projects would probably be turned into market rate housing though, displacing the poor into exurbs farther out. Paris will still be Paris.
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Who makes local zoning laws and who elects those people? Who pays their salaries?
What you're describing sounds like market fixing, not free market.
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
What you're describing sounds like market fixing, not free market.
No, what you're describing sounds like anarcho-capitalism. What I'm describing is how things actually work in this country - government being leveraged by capital, for capital. This is just the local government equivalent of that. Nothing is preventing someone with the resources from coming in and buying up the whole damn neighborhood if they want, and putting in their own people in local government. It's a free country.
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
No, what you're describing sounds like anarcho-capitalism. What I'm describing is how things actually work in this country - government being leveraged by capital, for capital. This is just the local government equivalent of that. Nothing is preventing someone with the resources from coming in and buying up the whole damn neighborhood if they want, and putting in their own people in local government. It's a free country.
You can call it whatever you want, but I'm just pointing out that what YOU'RE describing is NOT free market. It is quite literally not free market if the owners of a class of asset can dictate how other owners of the asset class can use their own asset. It is "market fixing" if owners of an asset are dictating policy to manipulate the value of the assets they own.
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
You can call it whatever you want, but I'm just pointing out that what YOU'RE describing is NOT free market. It is quite literally not free market if the owners of a class of asset can dictate how other owners of the asset class can use their own asset.
You're just describing zoning laws in general, or any laws relating to how you can use your property. It sounds like the only true free market according to you is anarcho-capitalism .
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  #60  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 11:47 PM
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You're just describing zoning laws in general, or any laws relating to how you can use your property. It sounds like the only true free market according to you is anarcho-capitalism .
Zoning laws are created through the political process. They are intended to constrain the use cases available to property owners. In other words, they are limits on what is allowed to occur in the "free market." That's all I'm saying. Zoning laws are not free market. They literally exist to control the market.
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