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  #81  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2020, 1:40 PM
Tocchet22 Tocchet22 is offline
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Originally Posted by Offshore1 View Post
If anyone needed any further proof of the need for amalgamation this was it.
NE Avalon does not have to re-invent the wheel with amalgamation. Other major cities (Toronto, Halifax) have done it in recent past and no doubt dealt with issues resulting from the change. So send a delegation to Halifax to discuss those issues so it can be implemented as correct as possible here!

I live in CBS and would have much rather seen my tax dollars spent on a Community Rec Center than new Town Hall. My property tax may go up initially but if I get the services I need because systems in place are more efficient, they may go down. Don't have any issue living in CBS region of St. John's Metro...
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  #82  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2020, 2:24 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post


That suggestion has come up several times in other discussions here and I like it as well, at least as an interim step. Say... amalgamating Mount Pearl and Paradise to start.

Maybe CBS and Portugal Cove-St. Phillip's?

Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove and Torbay?
I think it should be St. John's/Mt. Pearl first. Mt. Pearl is virtually surrounded by St. John's, and there is some current unrest re: Southlands. This would be the biggest hurdle, and would maybe serve to spur opinion for others to join the metro region.

If it's Mt. Pearl & Paradise first, I think it could be an impediment, as the combined result would say they are an equal viable entity with St. John's.

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  #83  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2020, 2:37 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly View Post
It probably makes more sense for us to do it than it did for Halifax. The HRM is currently a mess of urban and rural regions being treated as one. In comparison, most of the northeast Avalon can be considered urban, with a few places such as Pouch Cove, Maddox Cove, etc. which are definitely more rural. I think some differences in how the municipality is run which would account for the different needs of each city/town would be a must.

If there was a way to encourage still using the old city names instead of just saying Northeast Avalon Regional Municipality or whatever it'd be called would definitely be a plus for each town/city.

Creating such a regional municipality would definitely keep the northeast Avalon from competing with each other and have them work as one to compete with other Canadian cities for regional funding/infrastructure/services.
Agree. I think the place names would still exist colloquially in any case, as they do for divisions of other towns in NL. i.e; they still refer to Windsor area of GF-Windsor, Mockbeggar or Red Point in Bonavista. Even Powers Pond in Mt. Pearl as it stands now.

One advantage that HRM has now is that, if an entity is scouting to set up an Atlantic Canada base, they might look up the population of Halifax and find 430K which is the HRM figure.

Looking up St. John's yields 114K, which is far less than the 262K reported for NE Avalon metro area.

I realize there are other factors considered by a corporation when scouting for a head office location, but population is certainly up there, and lends the perception of a busier area with all the sporting, shopping, and cultural activities that it entails.

Last edited by jjavman; Feb 6, 2020 at 4:30 PM.
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  #84  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2020, 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Horsell View Post
Not that I have any vested interest in how municipalities are governed but I think the current system of Town Councils in ever little nook and cranny has to be inefficient. I would like to see a county system implemented whereby existing communities can still maintain their identity within a broader area. No more of this foolish naming of towns such as Portugal Cove – St. Phillips or my favorite, New-wes-valley.

I could see St. John’s and Mount Pearl as one city (St. Mount John’s or Pearl John’s or Pearl Jam…or something) with the rest of the NE Avalon as one or two counties. Drawing the exact border may be a bit tricky with Paradise very close to St. John’s but I’m sure there are legitimate criteria such as water and sewer infrastructure that might help define it a bit better.

I would not favor a “super city” concept where there are clearly rural/urban components. Being a “townie”, I’d like to see the City of St. John’s (including Mt. Pearl) maintain a primarily urban landscape. If you have a goat or a hen on your property, you live in the “country”…sorry “Southside goats”, you have to move…lol.
Cabot City !!KIDDING!!
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  #85  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2020, 6:11 PM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is offline
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I am a bit less for amalgamation than I used to be.

First, I am more skeptical of the centralization of power in general...when you couple this with the fact that St. John's is not a particularly well run city to begin with...the skepticism is only compounded.

Second, most of the arguments for amalgamation are not giving many examples/evidence of how it will improve things or even what the goals are. If anything it seems to be more predicated on the fact they don't like the idea of surrounding communities having better services in certain cases.

Third, lets talk about the services and jobs argument that always pops up. Yes St. John's has a lot of jobs that services that benefit the entire region. BUT a lot of those high paying jobs and services are there due to the Provincial or Federal governments. If the surrounding communities are benefiting from St. John's, St. John's is benefiting from upper levels of government placing those things in their borders.

Now that my rant is out of the way...if some sort of amalgamation were to happen I'd rather it just be a regional authority that handled overarching things like public transit, emergency services, planning etc.

And of course any sort of amalgamation or regional authority would require equal representation across the region.
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  #86  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 1:24 PM
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I've thought a lot about this as well, and I do think that regional governance may be the best approach. This is not just limited to the St. John's CMA, but should widely be used across the province as a cost-saving measure. I think even some sort of regional co-operation would go a long way at solving a lot of our issues, but municipalities all over our province can't stop bickering with one another to make any forward progress. We are essentially the Democratic Party here, stumbling over our own feet on the way to failure.

As far as Southlands goes, I'd give them to Mount Pearl in a heartbeat. St. John's loses nothing but maybe a couple thousand people on the population, and gains not having to drive snowclearing equipment out into the middle of nowhere.
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  #87  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly View Post
I've thought a lot about this as well, and I do think that regional governance may be the best approach. This is not just limited to the St. John's CMA, but should widely be used across the province as a cost-saving measure. I think even some sort of regional co-operation would go a long way at solving a lot of our issues, but municipalities all over our province can't stop bickering with one another to make any forward progress. We are essentially the Democratic Party here, stumbling over our own feet on the way to failure.

As far as Southlands goes, I'd give them to Mount Pearl in a heartbeat. St. John's loses nothing but maybe a couple thousand people on the population, and gains not having to drive snowclearing equipment out into the middle of nowhere.
St. John's boundaries pretty much take up the entire southern portion of the NE Avalon with the exception of Petty Harbor...the borders are much larger than one would think. I guess it's was preemptively given that land to make sure it remained the primary city.

The most obvious thing to make a regional co-operation for me is Metrobus. Mt. Pearl and Paradise already pay St. John's for service so it kinda makes sense to just make it a regional service and enhance and expand the routes. Whether CBS is a part of that I dunno.

If this worked well and there was good bus service throughout the metro it may be make amalgamation an easier sell in the future.
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  #88  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 4:09 PM
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Here's something to chew on.

Combine St. John's, Mount pearl, Paradise and CBS (what I would consider the more urban areas of the region), there are 4 mayors, 4 deputy mayors, and 26 councilors. 26 councilors! For approximately 200,000 people. That also comes with four different City/Town halls all with their own public works, HR, finance, recreation, etc. departments.

To put that in perspective, the City of Toronto has 1 mayor and 25 councilors and they are just shy of 3 million people (15x the population of the greater St. John's area). Halifax RM has a mayor and 16 councilors for just over 400,000 people.
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  #89  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Murphy View Post
Here's something to chew on.

Combine St. John's, Mount pearl, Paradise and CBS (what I would consider the more urban areas of the region), there are 4 mayors, 4 deputy mayors, and 26 councilors. 26 councilors! For approximately 200,000 people. That also comes with four different City/Town halls all with their own public works, HR, finance, recreation, etc. departments.

To put that in perspective, the City of Toronto has 1 mayor and 25 councilors and they are just shy of 3 million people (15x the population of the greater St. John's area). Halifax RM has a mayor and 16 councilors for just over 400,000 people.
You can go from having too many representatives to having too few very quickly. Yes, Toronto is an example of a regional amalgamation, but that doesn't suit me well if I live in the city and my whims are being dictated by those in the suburbs. This happens in Ottawa quite a bit - urban developments are set aside in favour of suburban councillors in Kanata and Orleans because they can vote as a bloc of councillors to stifle any development that doesn't directly serve them. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for something similar to happen in St. John's depending on the makeup of the council.

I'm not against the idea of regional amalgamation per se but there are certainly pros and cons.
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  #90  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 4:16 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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Originally Posted by J_Murphy View Post
Here's something to chew on.

Combine St. John's, Mount pearl, Paradise and CBS (what I would consider the more urban areas of the region), there are 4 mayors, 4 deputy mayors, and 26 councilors. 26 councilors! For approximately 200,000 people. That also comes with four different City/Town halls all with their own public works, HR, finance, recreation, etc. departments.

To put that in perspective, the City of Toronto has 1 mayor and 25 councilors and they are just shy of 3 million people (15x the population of the greater St. John's area). Halifax RM has a mayor and 16 councilors for just over 400,000 people.
Good post. Puts it in perspective.

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  #91  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 4:18 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
You can go from having too many representatives to having too few very quickly. Yes, Toronto is an example of a regional amalgamation, but that doesn't suit me well if I live in the city and my whims are being dictated by those in the suburbs. This happens in Ottawa quite a bit - urban developments are set aside in favour of suburban councillors in Kanata and Orleans because they can vote as a bloc of councillors to stifle any development that doesn't directly serve them. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for something similar to happen in St. John's depending on the makeup of the council.

I'm not against the idea of regional amalgamation per se but there are certainly pros and cons.
It might happen in Ottawa, but I bet they wouldn't currently have an LRT system without regional consolidation.
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  #92  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2020, 2:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly View Post
I've thought a lot about this as well, and I do think that regional governance may be the best approach. This is not just limited to the St. John's CMA, but should widely be used across the province as a cost-saving measure. I think even some sort of regional co-operation would go a long way at solving a lot of our issues, but municipalities all over our province can't stop bickering with one another to make any forward progress. We are essentially the Democratic Party here, stumbling over our own feet on the way to failure.

As far as Southlands goes, I'd give them to Mount Pearl in a heartbeat. St. John's loses nothing but maybe a couple thousand people on the population, and gains not having to drive snowclearing equipment out into the middle of nowhere.
Interesting view on Southlands. That logic would also suggest handing over Galway, which is even further west, to Mount Pearl..Not certain but I believe St. John's has to plow Ruby Line since Southlands and Galway really aren't that far out of the way.
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  #93  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2020, 3:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Crisisnf View Post
Interesting view on Southlands. That logic would also suggest handing over Galway, which is even further west, to Mount Pearl..Not certain but I believe St. John's has to plow Ruby Line since Southlands and Galway really aren't that far out of the way.
Galway itself is both a mistake and an urban nightmare. If Mount Pearl also wanted it I say let them have it.
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  #94  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2020, 3:39 PM
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I don't know how much regional cooperation currently exists in the northeast Avalon, but it might be possible to have increased integration without full amalgamation.

In metropolitan Moncton we have two cities, one large town and a number of smaller villages and parishes.

City of Moncton (population 71,000)
City of Dieppe (population 28,000)
Town of Riverview (population 20,000)

This gives a POPCTR (conurbation) population of about 120,000, with the CMA being about 158,000.

Each community is fully independent, and maintains their own taxation, bylaw enforcement, planning, community and recreation departments. The fire departments also are not integrated.

- There is a single regional police force for the conurbation (Codiac RCMP)
- There is also a single transit system for the conurbation (Codiac Transpo)
- There is an integrated greater Moncton water system supplying the three communities.
- The sewerage commission is also integrated between the three communities.
- Waste management is even more regionalized, including the entire CMA and all of Westmorland, Albert and Kent Counties.

The system seems to work reasonably well, with each community maintaining their distinctive characters, but with certain efficiencies of scale obtained.

Is there any cooperation at all between your major regional cities and towns?
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  #95  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 12:43 PM
Tocchet22 Tocchet22 is offline
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CBC News discussed this topic with former Mayor Dennis O'keefe on evening news Feb 11, 2020. Piece is located at 32 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJqZLF3Noac
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  #96  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 2:15 PM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is offline
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Public Meeting Called to Look into Southlands Exit Process:

https://vocm.com/2020/02/20/public-m...-exit-process/
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  #97  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by goodgrowth View Post
Public Meeting Called to Look into Southlands Exit Process:

https://vocm.com/2020/02/20/public-m...-exit-process/
Just another symptom of the dysfunction caused by a fractured metro region.
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  #98  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2020, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by goodgrowth View Post
Public Meeting Called to Look into Southlands Exit Process:

https://vocm.com/2020/02/20/public-m...-exit-process/
Sexit?

Ron.
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