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Old Posted Dec 1, 2022, 10:42 PM
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NYC: The world’s most expensive city.

This is no surprise. I can’t think of any other city in the world where properties sell at $10k/sf+. Properties in SF and London, for example, are way less expensive on a price per square foot basis. Most upscale properties in those cities sell for $1,000-$2,000/sf.


https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/w...022/index.html
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Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 12:14 AM
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^Hong Kong. Worlds smallest homes (1/5 those of NYC), at $2,100 per sq ft average rising to $18,000 per sq ft, even despite a 25% drop post-pandemic:

https://www.mansionglobal.com/articl...ng-01642766938

https://therealdeal.com/2022/07/02/h...-fetches-111m/


However food and going out is cheaper in HK, and tax lower - world's freest economy means only the top 20% get taxed, and only marginally so (though that creates huge problems too, socially and economically), which means HK is no longer the world's most expensive city.
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Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
This is no surprise. I can’t think of any other city in the world where properties sell at $10k/sf+. Properties in SF and London, for example, are way less expensive on a price per square foot basis. Most upscale properties in those cities sell for $1,000-$2,000/sf.


https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/w...022/index.html

Well this sucks....for us!
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Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 5:02 PM
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Toronto luxury condos are quickly approaching $2,000 USD per sf and even non-luxury condos downtown are in the ~$1,200 per sf USD range.

Even then - it pales to NYC.
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  #5  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 5:04 PM
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Crazy part is the sudden drop in psf once you cross the river onto NJ's Gold Coast. Less than a mile! Its not really uniformed and even within NYC city limits, a few blocks can mean a large difference.
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Old Posted Dec 3, 2022, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
This is no surprise. I can’t think of any other city in the world where properties sell at $10k/sf+. Properties in SF and London, for example, are way less expensive on a price per square foot basis. Most upscale properties in those cities sell for $1,000-$2,000/sf.


https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/w...022/index.html

Oh and London average property price is $878K, at a city average 705 sq ft (vs NYC at $783K, city average 1,167 sq ft)

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices-in-London.html

https://www.zillow.com/home-values/6181/new-york-ny/

https://www.ahs.com/home-matters/rea...me-size-index/

https://www.housebeautiful.com/uk/li...es-homebuyers/



Per sq ft this would work out at London $1,245 and NYC $671, almost double. The top end sells for $13,700:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/14/lond...r-listing.html


However, in terms of cost of living London has fallen -though watch this space this winter as the country now ploughs into the world's most expensive energy prices, equivalent to food or rent.

Last edited by muppet; Dec 3, 2022 at 12:54 PM.
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Old Posted Dec 3, 2022, 1:10 PM
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Look at the most expensive London properties on savills.com. Do the same for SF and LA on realtor.com. No city’s price per square for remotely approaches Manhattan’s.
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Old Posted Dec 3, 2022, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
^Hong Kong. Worlds smallest homes (1/5 those of NYC), at $2,100 per sq ft average rising to $18,000 per sq ft, even despite a 25% drop post-pandemic:

https://www.mansionglobal.com/articl...ng-01642766938

https://therealdeal.com/2022/07/02/h...-fetches-111m/


However food and going out is cheaper in HK, and tax lower - world's freest economy means only the top 20% get taxed, and only marginally so (though that creates huge problems too, socially and economically), which means HK is no longer the world's most expensive city.

world’s freest economy, eh? i’d like to see them try to sell a toilet cake piss target with xi jinping’s face on it.
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  #9  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2022, 3:51 PM
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I think you're confusing what 'free economy' means - not civil rights but the ability to open a business and do business, to trade without regulation. HK scores so high because of minimal bureaucracy and their lack of taxes too- it's not the best indicator either or necessarily an accolade to be proud of as this has repercussions throughout society, with predatory business practice free to exploit.


For example because HK only gets the top 20% earners to pay marginal taxes, this ultimately means the remaining 80% are trapped in the working class (despite the worlds best education results), and one third on the absolute precariat. In any other place this would have meant capital flight as the rich decamp a society devolving into crime, but thanks to HK's confucianist culture, lack of citizenship and democracy (both under the Brits and under China), there's little crime and nowhere to flee to anyway.



It's basically an experiment that its colonial masters - first Britain, now China -would never dare back home, great for making money and adding points to your economy, not so much for spreading that wealth which we all know has very, very little trickle-down effects.

HK is the worlds most unequal society in the OECD and the most unequal city, after NYC. It's an example of how a 'free' economy can actually damage the economy.

Anyhoo, World's Freest Economy yet again announced in 2022 by the Fraser Institute:

https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/...2090800841.htm
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  #10  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2022, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
Look at the most expensive London properties on savills.com. Do the same for SF and LA on realtor.com. No city’s price per square for remotely approaches Manhattan’s.
Savills? OMG lol, that's not a high end estate agency. My little hometown has Savills, most places do across the Southeast.

Look again at what you think are 'high end' in London, most of those are completely middle class homes (anything under a million). Only 4 on that page are on the edge of the centre:

https://search.savills.com/com/en/li...MzEwMy4wLjAuMA..


High end for London is usually done privately, or if you absolutely have to, via an auction house or private website, though tbf prices are down by a quarter from LY. The luxury end usually launches through almost word of mouth in set networks, rather than advertising for just anyone's roving eyes. A commoner might even see in your garden!:

https://www.sothebysrealty.com/eng/sales/london-en-gbr



https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/14/lond...r-listing.html


https://www.hindustantimes.com/world...485697534.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/inde...2-10?r=US&IR=T



It's not so much what you get, but the area:

$11,660 per sq ft

https://www.parkmodern.com/ , https://luxurylondon.co.uk/property/...hes-to-market/

$14,812:

https://luxatic.com/londons-one-hyde...ate%20islands.



The Knightsbridge district currently averaged $12,300 per sq ft back in 2015:

http://poseidon-gp.com/property/lond...0000-per-sqft/

Last edited by muppet; Dec 3, 2022 at 5:04 PM.
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  #11  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2022, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
This is no surprise. I can’t think of any other city in the world where properties sell at $10k/sf+. Properties in SF and London, for example, are way less expensive on a price per square foot basis. Most upscale properties in those cities sell for $1,000-$2,000/sf.


https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/w...022/index.html
Yes, absolutely at the absolute highest echelon of prices in the most urban quarters of these cities, NYC is by far more expensive per sq ft than San Francisco, and really has always been that way.

Where CA really sucks is metro wide median home prices:

Metro Area Median Home Price, Q3 2022
San Jose $1,688,000
San Francisco $1,300,000
San Diego $900,000
Los Angeles $893,200
New York $627,400

https://cdn.nar.realtor/sites/defaul...2022-11-10.pdf

Metro Area Median Condo Price, Q3 2022
San Francisco $898,200
Los Angeles $648,800
San Diego $634,500
New York $374,900

https://cdn.nar.realtor/sites/defaul...2022-11-10.pdf

and really this is nothing to brag about, in New York, there are more affordable areas outside of the city proper --in CA home buyers really have no relief as even the least desirable, high crime suburban areas command top dollar, which is really absurd.
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  #12  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2022, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
For example because HK only gets the top 20% earners to pay marginal taxes, this ultimately means the remaining 80% are trapped in the working class
I genuinely fail to understand how these things are related.

The only thing I know about HK is its slowly giving way to other cities in the region and is slowly dropping in ranks and becoming less relevant comparatively.
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  #13  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2022, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dimondpark View Post
Yes, absolutely at the absolute highest echelon of prices in the most urban quarters of these cities, NYC is by far more expensive per sq ft than San Francisco, and really has always been that way.

Where CA really sucks is metro wide median home prices:

Metro Area Median Home Price, Q3 2022
San Jose $1,688,000
San Francisco $1,300,000
San Diego $900,000
Los Angeles $893,200
New York $627,400

https://cdn.nar.realtor/sites/defaul...2022-11-10.pdf

Metro Area Median Condo Price, Q3 2022
San Francisco $898,200
Los Angeles $648,800
San Diego $634,500
New York $374,900

https://cdn.nar.realtor/sites/defaul...2022-11-10.pdf

and really this is nothing to brag about, in New York, there are more affordable areas outside of the city proper --in CA home buyers really have no relief as even the least desirable, high crime suburban areas command top dollar, which is really absurd.
Plus you really can't compare (most of) the Bay Area to NYC, totally different housing types. A shitty house which needs an overhaul here in Fremont in an iffy part of town is still at least a million.
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  #14  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2022, 12:33 AM
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I'm guessing what they really mean by "NYC" being expensive is mainly Manhattan and Brownstone Brooklyn.

Other than that, unless I was an elite global real estate investor, this is meaningless. I'm fine with living in affordable walkable neighborhoods elsewhere in the city and metro area.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2022, 12:37 AM
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I genuinely fail to understand how these things are related.

The only thing I know about HK is its slowly giving way to other cities in the region and is slowly dropping in ranks and becoming less relevant comparatively.
Hong Kong has little regulation for business, nor taxing. This makes it the world's freest place to do business and make money, and has often made it the most expensive place in the world if you include property prices, which are the worlds least affordable per sq ft and per property, both to locals and outsiders. Lack of taxing/ regulation means huge growth for the rich and the economy on paper, with ample room to exploit. However the high expense of everything effectively keeps the majority of the population priced out and poor.

It's basically an experiment in libertarianism, both China and the UK daren't try back home.

If you read between the lines, in HK they earn multiple times the salary on paper, but get far less of everything. Also in terms of class 80% are working class there, whilst over the border in China -despite the lower wages on paper - 63% are middle class, rising to 75% in urban areas. This is often what it means to be the most expensive city in the world - gross inequality. Other record holders in the past have been Moscow or Luanda in Angola, something like the economic implosions that have befallen Beirut means it has risen to 12th. Ndjamena in Chad is 13th.

In 2019 it was 11th, and commanded London/ NYC rents:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1YN03M

Last edited by muppet; Dec 23, 2022 at 6:48 AM.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2022, 4:03 AM
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Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
This is no surprise. I can’t think of any other city in the world where properties sell at $10k/sf+. Properties in SF and London, for example, are way less expensive on a price per square foot basis. Most upscale properties in those cities sell for $1,000-$2,000/sf.

Is that an actual statistic, or just an anecdotal observation gleamed from looking at the most extravagant of Manhattan real estate?

PSF aside, actual median selling prices in New York aren't really that extreme - especially compared to median local wages. IIRC, even just within the US San Francisco has a higher median sale price to median wage ratio; to say nothing of overheated markets in lower-wage places like many of those in Canada, Europe, Asia, and Australia. New York's ultra-luxury market does get pretty extreme - you won't find $100 million apartments in many other cities, for example - but that's not representative of what most people are buying.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2022, 5:22 AM
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Am I just ignorant about the details of real estate finance, or is using average values per square foot pretty silly in a place like NYC with such large volumes of top-end outliers in the data set?

Why don't we ever see reports like this with median values instead of mean?

Also, note the lack of Japanese cities in the list where normally Tokyo and Osaka both are in the top 10. The overvalued dollar is propping up NYC and LA, while the undervalued yen magically made Japan's notoriously high cost of living just up and vanish.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2022, 12:42 PM
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^ Right. Affordability is correctly measured using local wages, not the American dollar!

NYC has a very strong ultra-luxury market, but as others have pointed out already, for average people it’s not even as expensive as coastal California (or London, or Hong Kong).

Considering how low wages are in Canada generally, I wouldn’t be surprised if Vancouver had one of the worst [median real estate acquisition price per square foot vs typical local wage] ratios on the planet.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2022, 1:33 PM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
I think you're confusing what 'free economy' means - not civil rights but the ability to open a business and do business, to trade without regulation. HK scores so high because of minimal bureaucracy and their lack of taxes too- it's not the best indicator either or necessarily an accolade to be proud of as this has repercussions throughout society, with predatory business practice free to exploit.


For example because HK only gets the top 20% earners to pay marginal taxes, this ultimately means the remaining 80% are trapped in the working class (despite the worlds best education results), and one third on the absolute precariat. In any other place this would have meant capital flight as the rich decamp a society devolving into crime, but thanks to HK's confucianist culture, lack of citizenship and democracy (both under the Brits and under China), there's little crime and nowhere to flee to anyway.



It's basically an experiment that its colonial masters - first Britain, now China -would never dare back home, great for making money and adding points to your economy, not so much for spreading that wealth which we all know has very, very little trickle-down effects.

HK is the worlds most unequal society in the OECD and the most unequal city, after NYC. It's an example of how a 'free' economy can actually damage the economy.

Anyhoo, World's Freest Economy yet again announced in 2022 by the Fraser Institute:

https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/...2090800841.htm

A great argument against libertarianism (aka selfishism, aka "I got mine").
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2022, 2:38 PM
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I think you're confusing what 'free economy' means - not civil rights but the ability to open a business and do business, to trade without regulation.
i think you are confusing the ability to freely conduct business without regulation as being independent of society. its not. as for the tax bargain its no different from other tax havens of various stripes such as texas or delaware or cayman or many others. its not so special anymore. as its subsumed into china hk’s economic relavency is fading as fast its neon lights, media freedom and its basic human rights, they are intertwined. not to say it isnt an important place, but nothing like it once was. to wit: Hong Kong’s economic power has also declined sharply as its GDP relative to Mainland China has fallen from 16 percent in 1997 to 3 percent today.

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/20...orld-city-dims

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ho...2-271668157058
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