HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Buildings & Architecture > Completed Project Threads Archive


 

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #161  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2016, 8:39 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 18,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEFTA View Post
Not an exciting plan. Early renderings. It doesn't look like it will bring much to ground level at all. Unfortunate. Nice scale but rather unresponsive to the surroundings. I hate that JFK has been ignored by all the new developments.
All of your complaints are addressed in the article. They are having a hard time finding retail tenants to sign on because of the flood plain. A supermarket will be housed in the northern tower base, and the southern tower will be parking. I don't think this is terrible. Could be worse. I think it meets the street pretty well overall.

Also, JFK will be ignored for now... but in the future, there is certainly possibility for more development in a later phase along JFK.
     
     
  #162  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2016, 8:41 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 18,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
Does this plan have any connection to the river trail from the property?

Doesn't look like it but maybe I missed it
As of right now no... it would be a cool thing to have here though. Maybe the neighborhood group can convince them to do something like what CHOP is doing with their project, and the bridge over the tracks to connect to the trail. Or even just another railroad crossing like Locust and Race...
     
     
  #163  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2016, 8:55 PM
Knight Hospitaller's Avatar
Knight Hospitaller Knight Hospitaller is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Greater Philadelphia
Posts: 2,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
As of right now no... it would be a cool thing to have here though. Maybe the neighborhood group can convince them to do something like what CHOP is doing with their project, and the bridge over the tracks to connect to the trail. Or even just another railroad crossing like Locust and Race...
Seems like a no brainer, but PMC doesn't spend money that it doesn't have to. I'm sure that CDR will include that in a list of refinements.
     
     
  #164  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2016, 12:57 AM
domodeez domodeez is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
Does this plan have any connection to the river trail from the property?
Doesn't look like it. There's currently an at-grade crossing at Race just one block north as well as a staircase from JFK's south side down to the trail. It looks like there's potential to connect this development over to Schuylkill Banks from one of the podium rooftops (especially the nw corner of the south tower podium) but that only makes sense if they are public access.

I'd like to see some detailed renderings of the podiums from a 50-100' elevation to see what's going on up there.
     
     
  #165  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2016, 3:54 AM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,623
The article mentioned that the present zoning runs out at the end of this year, and that PMC is looking to extend the current zoning for an additional 5 years. Although the CDR is generally a useless process this is one time where I could see the City playing hardball. PMC wants more time; what can the City ask in return? Based on the past I'd like to see a push for a much 'higher' level of design. What's being run out right now looks to me like very early drafts, not at all detailed, presentation drawings. Maybe the City could give them an additional 6 months to come up with more detailed plans. Or why give them an extension at all? With such a different vision what would be so terrible about having them start the process for a zoning variance from the beginning?

When you think of the degree of detail and thought that went into the last owners plans, just to get a zoning change, it makes me aware of how weak this release is. But if nothing else, PMC knows how to play the game and unless pressured to do otherwise, why should they want to change the way they operate. Instead of their usual C+ or B- projects, on this site I hope the City can get a strong B+ at a minimum. If they are going to build two, or even twin in style towers I would like one of them to be built as condos, even if they aren't sold that way right now. There's just not that much river front real estate left so I hope the City doesn't get left with another 2400 Chestnut St.
     
     
  #166  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2016, 2:04 PM
McBane McBane is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,717
Not exciting but not ugly either. Is that a Philly special? Just a simple plain glass box? This fits that mold. I can understand the frustration from those who were hoping to see something bolder, like the Bridge. But PMC and "statement buildings" don't go together unfortunately. (Although...I do think their work at 16th and Walnut is pretty good.)

The one thing this project has going for it is the location, right on the trail. That's going to be a big selling point for potential tenants. So it does surprise me a bit that PMC isn't spending a few extra bucks for a direct connection to the trail. I don't view such a connection as a concession to the city but rather a significant amenity for their tenants. It's like a developer forgoing a pool or fitness center because they don't want to spend the extra money.

A concession to the city would be like a cafe fronting the trail, which I'd really, really like to see one day. Even just a place to buy a fucking bottle of water.
     
     
  #167  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2016, 2:52 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Bala Cynwyd
Posts: 3,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBane View Post
Not exciting but not ugly either. Is that a Philly special? Just a simple plain glass box? This fits that mold. I can understand the frustration from those who were hoping to see something bolder, like the Bridge. But PMC and "statement buildings" don't go together unfortunately. (Although...I do think their work at 16th and Walnut is pretty good.)

The one thing this project has going for it is the location, right on the trail. That's going to be a big selling point for potential tenants. So it does surprise me a bit that PMC isn't spending a few extra bucks for a direct connection to the trail. I don't view such a connection as a concession to the city but rather a significant amenity for their tenants. It's like a developer forgoing a pool or fitness center because they don't want to spend the extra money.

A concession to the city would be like a cafe fronting the trail, which I'd really, really like to see one day. Even just a place to buy a fucking bottle of water.
PMC is not affiliated with the Beacon at 16th and Walnut. The developer is Pearl, and DAS is the architect. I like that building a lot. Otherwise, I agree with your post. The Philly special for residential does seem to be a plain glass box, often with metal panels that do little to nothing for the aesthetic or actively detract. PMC is not known for it's tenant amenities either. Still, I'm with those that think this is a serviceable design. Would love to see more on the Riverfront and more trail engagement (which the City may push for in a redesign), but it's decent.
     
     
  #168  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2016, 4:21 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 923
Quote:
Originally Posted by domodeez View Post
Doesn't look like it. There's currently an at-grade crossing at Race just one block north as well as a staircase from JFK's south side down to the trail. It looks like there's potential to connect this development over to Schuylkill Banks from one of the podium rooftops (especially the nw corner of the south tower podium) but that only makes sense if they are public access.

I'd like to see some detailed renderings of the podiums from a 50-100' elevation to see what's going on up there.
I am interested in that as well. I do believe some connection to trail should be made. On the market or retail something like a TJs could work but that would mean they move. I do believe that with the RR sort of blocking traditional retail has more limited appeal here but a market would work, likely with some form of parking (I know kill me)

Another thought with trail access some elevated area along the water with a restaurant/pub could be interesting or accompanying a market

maybe even a wawa but do think their retail offerings would be limited by demand

guess we will see

I also hope at some point the JFK portion would get done but more importantly JFK could use a boost in general in these parts
     
     
  #169  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2016, 7:53 PM
Groundhog's Avatar
Groundhog Groundhog is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
maybe even a wawa but do think their retail offerings would be limited by demand

guess we will see
I've always thought a Rita's would do great along the River Trail. Foot traffic is fairly seasonal and I can't imagine it wouldn't be a hit in summer. I know it's not the most engaging to have a store that's closed half the year, but if there were multiple trail facing retail options, I think they would be a logical fit, along with some cafes and maybe a restaurant/bar.
     
     
  #170  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2016, 12:13 AM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
I've always thought a Rita's would do great along the River Trail. Foot traffic is fairly seasonal and I can't imagine it wouldn't be a hit in summer. I know it's not the most engaging to have a store that's closed half the year, but if there were multiple trail facing retail options, I think they would be a logical fit, along with some cafes and maybe a restaurant/bar.
Just think what this park could be like if the rail traffic got moved to the other side of the river-------I think it will happen sooner or probably later, so I just wish the City mothers and fathers would get real and start working toward that end.
     
     
  #171  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2016, 1:55 AM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 18,362
From the LSNA - PMC Riverwalk / 23rd and Arch Streets

Quote:
The group reviewed and discussed PMC’s proposed project for the Riverwalk / 23rd and Arch St. site in advance of PMC’s presentation at the Nov. 8th board meeting. The group noted its concerns about several issues: building massing, urban design details, site circulation / garage entries, adjacent street conditions, the termination of Arch Street as a private cul de sac instead of a public pedestrian plaza, uses facing onto Arch Street at street level, and providing pedestrian connections to the Schuylkill Banks trail.

The committee recommended that LSNA support a 3 month extension to the zoning ordinance’s sunset clause as opposed to the 5 year extension requested by PMC. The group also recommended requiring PMC to hold at least two near neighbor meetings to allow for neighborhood input and to provide a traffic study and wind study.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...U2Njk1NmEyNzNk
     
     
  #172  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2016, 4:26 AM
Philamigo's Avatar
Philamigo Philamigo is offline
Leges Sine Moribus Vanae
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: City Of Brotherly Love
Posts: 43
Interesting that in all of the most recent renderings, the CITC tower is conspicuously absent.
     
     
  #173  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 2:14 PM
Urbanthusiat's Avatar
Urbanthusiat Urbanthusiat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: South Philly
Posts: 1,674
     
     
  #174  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 3:02 PM
boxbot's Avatar
boxbot boxbot is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Delco., Pa.
Posts: 842
It’s not clear whether it will be a multi-phase project. “That’s still being debated,” says Epstein. “We are drawing it as a single project, but I think the owners are waiting to figure out what the market looks like."

Ooof. I've read that book before and know how it ends.
     
     
  #175  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 3:11 PM
Plokoon11 Plokoon11 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxbot View Post
It’s not clear whether it will be a multi-phase project. “That’s still being debated,” says Epstein. “We are drawing it as a single project, but I think the owners are waiting to figure out what the market looks like."

Ooof. I've read that book before and know how it ends.
^ Yes that book is right next to the 'Waterfront Square' book.
     
     
  #176  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 3:15 PM
1487 1487 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,401
hopefully one gets under construction before the market becomes clearly saturated. The only good thing is there isn't a ton of new product in the immediate area of this site. Of course if 1910 chestnut and 1911 Walnut actually move forward that changes things a bit.
     
     
  #177  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 6:45 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 18,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
hopefully one gets under construction before the market becomes clearly saturated. The only good thing is there isn't a ton of new product in the immediate area of this site. Of course if 1910 chestnut and 1911 Walnut actually move forward that changes things a bit.
The market is not saturated, and there are no signs of the market becoming saturated - not sure where you got this info from. It SEEMS as though the market has slowed down, but it hasn't. There have just been a dozen or so apartment buildings that have finished up or are finishing up around the same time. One Water Street, the Collins, Griffin, Dalian, etc. are all meeting their lease-up goals. The expectation for a new luxury highrise in Philadelphia is 13 months until lease up.

1919 Market, 3737 Chestnut, Icon, etc. all leased up AHEAD of expectations. 1919 Market is expected to lease up in 10 months - which is way ahead of goal.

Other buildings like Touraine, Icon, 2116 Chestnut, 3737 Chestnut, 1900 Arch, 2040 Market etc. are all fully leased up.

The only two buildings to struggle that were recently completed are Tower Place, and 3601 Market. I wouldn't say that is from market saturation though, but rather from location (Tower Place) and location and ridiculous asking prices on rent (3601 Market) due to the location. Evo struggled a little at first as well, but that was because they missed their construction deadline for completion to start leasing before the school year started.

I still think there is room for more apartment buildings, especially as the job base and population are growing in Philadelphia. There is still demand.

The one thing about this development though, is 600 units all at once will be tough to absorb within 13 months. Philadelphia is still a slow growth market. I think if they take the East Market route, and start one tower first, then start of the second tower 13-15 months out, this will allow the first tower to lease up before the second tower is complete.
     
     
  #178  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 7:05 PM
McBane McBane is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
hopefully one gets under construction before the market becomes clearly saturated. The only good thing is there isn't a ton of new product in the immediate area of this site. Of course if 1910 chestnut and 1911 Walnut actually move forward that changes things a bit.
1911 Walnut and Riverwalk are aiming for a different customer altogether. The recently posted interview with the architect clearly shows they are aiming for millennials at Riverwalk. I'm guessing that 1911 Walnut will be out of reach for most millennials.
     
     
  #179  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 7:33 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 18,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBane View Post
1911 Walnut and Riverwalk are aiming for a different customer altogether. The recently posted interview with the architect clearly shows they are aiming for millennials at Riverwalk. I'm guessing that 1911 Walnut will be out of reach for most millennials.
They will both have a mix of millennials, students, empty nesters, retirees, etc.

1911 Walnut will appeal to the people who want to live on the "prestigious" Rittenhouse Square and be in the heart of the city, closest to the restaurants, shopping, etc. They want to live on the square, and are wiling to pay the premium for it. These will be the millennials who are making 6-figures, or the couples making at least $90K a piece. This will also be where the Wharton students and other wealthy Penn and Drexel grads want to live - and where the empty nesters and retirees want to live moving into the city, and want to keep only one car or get rid of both. There will likely also be some families here. This building will be the people looking for $2000-$2300+ for a one bedroom apartment.

River Walk will appeal to the people who want to be a little further out. They want to be close to the highways, because maybe they work in the suburbs. They want to be close to the city, but a little further out and quieter atmosphere. They want to be closer to the river trail too. These will be millennials who have a car, and maybe work in the burbs. Also living here will be empty nesters and retirees moving into the city but don't want all of the hustle and bustle - they also want to keep one or both cars. Few students would likely live here, but any of them would probably be Drexel students. Some families may live here too, but not as many. This development will be for the people looking to spend $1800-$1900 for a one bedroom apartment.
     
     
  #180  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 8:18 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Bala Cynwyd
Posts: 3,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
They will both have a mix of millennials, students, empty nesters, retirees, etc.

1911 Walnut will appeal to the people who want to live on the "prestigious" Rittenhouse Square and be in the heart of the city, closest to the restaurants, shopping, etc. They want to live on the square, and are wiling to pay the premium for it. These will be the millennials who are making 6-figures, or the couples making at least $90K a piece. This will also be where the Wharton students and other wealthy Penn and Drexel grads want to live - and where the empty nesters and retirees want to live moving into the city, and want to keep only one car or get rid of both. There will likely also be some families here. This building will be the people looking for $2000-$2300+ for a one bedroom apartment.

River Walk will appeal to the people who want to be a little further out. They want to be close to the highways, because maybe they work in the suburbs. They want to be close to the city, but a little further out and quieter atmosphere. They want to be closer to the river trail too. These will be millennials who have a car, and maybe work in the burbs. Also living here will be empty nesters and retirees moving into the city but don't want all of the hustle and bustle - they also want to keep one or both cars. Few students would likely live here, but any of them would probably be Drexel students. Some families may live here too, but not as many. This development will be for the people looking to spend $1800-$1900 for a one bedroom apartment.
I generally agree, but I bet dollars to donuts the average 1 bedroom at 1911 Walnut will go for more than $2,000-$2,300. The nicer 1 BRs at 1500 Locust are almost that much, and its location is not as good. The amenities, etc...will surely be better at 1911 Walnut as well, and it has the new, 'cool' factor going for it. If 1911 Walnut has some smaller 1 BRs, like in the 500 sq foot range, $2000-$2300 seems realistic for those units. As a further comparison, the 1 BRs at the Alison (1805 Walnut) go for more like $2600 and are in the 700 square foot range. Domb may have made that more upscale when he converted that building than the 1911 rental units will be. Not sure.

That said, I agree that 1911 Walnut rentals should be feasible for many millennials. The condos are more questionable, but they don't need the millennial market for those. Philadelphians have more money than many people think. Maybe not in huge numbers, but enough.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
 

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Buildings & Architecture > Completed Project Threads Archive
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:56 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.