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  #181  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 12:29 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by faridnyc View Post
Peen station site is the best zone to give birth for the first new York city megatall , i hope something towarde 2400ft height will rise there .
There are no height limits in the district, so it's theoretically possible.

I don't know about 2,400 ft., that sounds crazy tall, but I could see a tower approaching 2,000 ft.
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  #182  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 12:36 PM
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The only restriction would be the FAA once you get to 2000 ft. Than it would require a special process of approval via FAA. 2000 ft being the ceiling height for U.S. structures including tv/radio towers without special approval or to make exception to that overall max. Almost like a FAA zoning request as a concept.

That part of Midtown isn't really in direct impedance of flight patterns (usually Hudson/East River trajectory) and if they fly East/West through South Midtown, its well over 5000 ft +.

FAA tends to be fair though. For the most part, although I do question the LIC max, which kinda seems to be like some strings were pulled to put that silly cap.
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  #183  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 2:18 PM
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trees don't belong on buildings
100%

But it's important to remember when you see trees (or other greenery for that matter) its often totally disingenuous on the part of the architect/developer as in reality either the trees never actually are planted/installed or they would knowingly die within a couple years of introduction anyway.

That being said Facebook tower is revolting. Preventing that shit from becoming real would almost be as satisfying as re building original Penn.
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  #184  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 2:48 PM
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^ if and when it happens, the odds that it looks exactly like this render are pretty much zero.


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Originally Posted by TheIllinoisan View Post
Wow. Its like they took 7 or 8 of the 10 worst architecture trends of the past decade, supersized them, and then decided to slap them down within a few blocks of each other.

Absolutely disgusting.

lol -- well, you aint lyin.

obviously just placeholders though.

i am more surprized at the heights they chose.

i thought the largest and tallest tower was always expected to be the penn hotel site, but in that plan its the se corner of the new penn station annex block.
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  #185  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
To be honest though, these issues all sound like they stem from a combination of (1) inadequate platform capacity -- NYP's antiquated platforms increasing dwell times -- and (2) inadequate throughput capacity, in particular caused by too many movements trying to negotiate the station approaches (with the worst problems being on the west side). Basically, you're getting stuck in the approach because some other train is fouling your train's path.

If this is the case, then more track capacity actually worsens the problem of approach delays, because more track capacity = bigger, more complex (and necessarily flat) approaches = more opportunity for conflicting movements. A countersolution -- one Alon Levy has long posed -- is to do the exact opposite: eliminate several NYP tracks in order to widen its inadequately-narrow platforms, which also streamlines and simplifies the approaches, reducing potential opportunities for fouling them.

I’m telling you what I know firsthand, not in theory. The platforms basically function as a parking lot for trains dispensing and taking on passengers. We are at a set limit to how many trains can enter the station at any given time because if it, be it rush hour or any other time of day. Forget about Gateway, what would be the use of an extra tunnel if there’s nowhere to go at the end if it? This station NEEDS more platforms. It only takes one minor accident (and we’ve had many of those) on a single track to shut down MULTIPLE tracks and access to platforms, causing countless cancelations and delays for days. Which makes the planning even more imperative.

Congestion pricing is coming next year. More and more people will be forced off the road, and into a situation that is already beyond what is acceptable. Yet, this project would take at least a decade to complete. The time for senseless debate over if/what/or when is over.




Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
i am more surprized at the heights they chose.

i thought the largest and tallest tower was always expected to be the penn hotel site, but in that plan its the se corner of the new penn station annex block.
Remember, 15 Penn wasn’t always the tallest in the redevelopment scheme.
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  #186  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 4:23 PM
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This is how it always starts...


https://therealdeal.com/2020/01/09/l...-station-site/

Landlord to Cuomo: “No intention of selling” Penn Station site
Governor eyes city block to expand train hub, has eminent domain in back pocket






TRD New York
Jan. 09, 2020


Quote:
Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s Penn Station expansion plan already has a big hurdle — 17 stories tall, in fact.

A landlord whose business is in the pathway of the project said he is angry about the proposal unveiled Monday and doesn’t want to move.

“We are long-term property owners with no intention of selling,” Michael Orbach, whose company owns a 17-story office building at 259 West 30th Street, told Crain’s.

“We were never notified in writing of the state’s intentions prior to the announcement, so we really do not know what the scope of this project is,” Orbach said. “While we appreciate the need to expand Penn Station and appreciate the governor’s intentions here, we have seen the state’s use of the eminent domain process in the past at the New York Times Building on Eighth Avenue and it was not handled in a fair way for the small property owners involved.”

The governor’s office said it wants to acquire private property through friendly negotiations rather than by condemning them. Orbach’s reaction throws the first wrench in that plan.
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  #187  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 4:35 PM
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Acquiring every parcel on this block will be prohibitively expensive.
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  #188  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 4:45 PM
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No such thing as friendly negotiations with these land owners. Eminent domain is the way to go. Its going to be forced for the greater good of the station and region.

Its incredible the amount of grace NY and the state provides for certain parcels. Essentially lagging or stifling much need growth or expansions. More eminent domain needs to be used.
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  #189  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
Acquiring every parcel on this block will be prohibitively expensive.
And Penn South will eventually acquire the block immediately to the west. Thankfully, Amtrak and the PA already own half the block.

But, yeah, both these blocks will be crazy expensive, which is why the replacement towers will likely have to be huge.
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  #190  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 7:49 PM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
I’m telling you what I know firsthand, not in theory. The platforms basically function as a parking lot for trains dispensing and taking on passengers. We are at a set limit to how many trains can enter the station at any given time because if it, be it rush hour or any other time of day. Forget about Gateway, what would be the use of an extra tunnel if there’s nowhere to go at the end if it? This station NEEDS more platforms. It only takes one minor accident (and we’ve had many of those) on a single track to shut down MULTIPLE tracks and access to platforms, causing countless cancelations and delays for days. Which makes the planning even more imperative.
You've kind of stumbled onto the real issue with capacity at Penn. They can't unload and load passengers efficiently because of outdated railcar designs, narrow platforms, and terrible vertical circulation which results in long dwells and inefficient use of track space. Long dwells play havoc with smooth operations even if one insists on terminating trains there and turning them back from whence they came. The solution to long dwells isn't to add more places to park the trains, it's to fix the real problem.
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  #191  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 8:19 PM
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I hope we will see something exceeding the tip height of one world trade center.
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  #192  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 8:28 PM
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Originally Posted by k1052 View Post
YThe solution to long dwells isn't to add more places to park the trains, it's to fix the real problem.
Again, that's the real problem. More platforms are needed.

It isn't the only issue, but it's one of three key issues (tracks, tunnel and station capacity). All three desperately need to be remedied, which should be apparent to anyone who has ever utilized Penn.

I'm amazed that people are continually arguing against something so obvious. There's a reason you're sitting in a stalled train in NJ, waiting for clearance to enter the tunnel. There's a reason you're huddling in a Penn stairwell, waiting to race to your train when it's announced. There's a reason the platform dwell times are so absurdly short.

It's like a fat dude trying to squeeze into petite yogawear. You have a station that hasn't expanded in 110 years while ridership has quadrupled.

Commuting from NJ is expected to double over the next 50 years. Penn and the PA Terminal are absurdly over capacity, right now. Both facilities will need to be massively expanded, just to keep up. Realistically, you probably need two new rail tunnels, and the Lincoln Tunnel might have to go bus-only during rush hour.
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  #193  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 9:20 PM
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I don't really like the idea of eminent domain, but this is one situation where it's completely justified imo.
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  #194  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 9:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Again, that's the real problem. More platforms are needed.


I'm amazed that people are continually arguing against something so obvious. There's a reason you're sitting in a stalled train in NJ, waiting for clearance to enter the tunnel. There's a reason you're huddling in a Penn stairwell, waiting to race to your train when it's announced. There's a reason the platform dwell times are so absurdly short.
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  #195  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Again, that's the real problem. More platforms are needed.

It isn't the only issue, but it's one of three key issues (tracks, tunnel and station capacity). All three desperately need to be remedied, which should be apparent to anyone who has ever utilized Penn.

I'm amazed that people are continually arguing against something so obvious. There's a reason you're sitting in a stalled train in NJ, waiting for clearance to enter the tunnel. There's a reason you're huddling in a Penn stairwell, waiting to race to your train when it's announced. There's a reason the platform dwell times are so absurdly short.

It's like a fat dude trying to squeeze into petite yogawear. You have a station that hasn't expanded in 110 years while ridership has quadrupled.

Commuting from NJ is expected to double over the next 50 years. Penn and the PA Terminal are absurdly over capacity, right now. Both facilities will need to be massively expanded, just to keep up. Realistically, you probably need two new rail tunnels, and the Lincoln Tunnel might have to go bus-only during rush hour.
Go stand at the RER station at Les Halles that does half a million people a day on four big platforms. The big differences are station design and how the service is run to maximize the physical assets.

I'd essentially turn Penn into the same thing but almost triple the size (and thus capacity) by demoing MSG to build a gigantic mezzanine with wide platform-mezz-street access points, filling in tracks to widen the platforms, add the two Hudson tubes, and making NJT-LIRR-Amtrak thru run all services. If anything stands at the platform for more than a couple minutes then something would be wrong. There would be no flat crossing movements.

This is a reasonable illustration of such a plan:

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  #196  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 10:38 PM
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Anybody who was at Penn during the month of December 2019 fully understands the need for an expansion. Its borderline dangerous, to the point where there is real risk of a stampede if the right conditions arise. 2,000+ people jamming into a small ass door for track 2 for the Northeast Corridor line. Pretty much like this for all 20+ tracks.

And not even in December, but every damn month. While the nice thing to do would be negotiations, I think the State Agencies, and the Governor along with failed DeBlasio are getting so much heat for this, its going to be taken by force if necessary. Coumo wants a legacy, and he'll get one if it means by force. Egos aside, the region... not the city... but the region needs this.

Likewise with expanded PA Bus Terminal.
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  #197  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 11:20 PM
k1052 k1052 is offline
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post

Likewise with expanded PA Bus Terminal.
I think they have still yet to settle on a concept and cost for that but they want to start in 2022 and finish in 2030. I..don't think they'll make that timeline.
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  #198  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2020, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k1052 View Post
Go stand at the RER station at Les Halles that does half a million people a day on four big platforms. The big differences are station design and how the service is run to maximize the physical assets.

I'd essentially turn Penn into the same thing but almost triple the size (and thus capacity) by demoing MSG to build a gigantic mezzanine with wide platform-mezz-street access points, filling in tracks to widen the platforms, add the two Hudson tubes, and making NJT-LIRR-Amtrak thru run all services. If anything stands at the platform for more than a couple minutes then something would be wrong. There would be no flat crossing movements.

This is a reasonable illustration of such a plan:

Bingo. This is how you solve Penn Station's problems. New tunnels, simplified approaches, more platform capacity, minimal dwell time are how you go about maximizing throughput with what you've got anywhere else in the developed world.
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  #199  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2020, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Penn is the busiest station in the western world, but with (relatively) few tracks. Outside of Japan there's no equivalent.
Actually, it"s Paris Gare du Nord.
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  #200  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2020, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sky88 View Post
Maybe

Oof. Please no.
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