Overhauling Amtrak

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by electricron

Well, parts of I-95 have tolls, and California has very high gas taxes.
Never-the-less, the only taxes freight railroad companies pay are property taxes, and income taxes which they keep as low as possible.

Let's review quickly the financial performance of toll roads.

UPDATE 1-Texas toll road files for bankruptcy as cash runs low

https://www.reuters.com/article/texa...-idINL2N16A2IJ

South Bay toll road close to ending Cha. 11 bankruptcy

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...r15-story.html

South Carolina toll road in rare Chapter 9 bankruptcy

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...65N6OA20100624

Foreign-owned operator of Indiana toll road files for bankruptcy
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...0HH2C420140922

O.C. toll road agency requests federal bailout
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...d17-story.html

[ardecila]

^ That doesn't prove anything except that P3 deals are usually awful for investors, not because highways are a bad investment per se but because the terms of the deal are usually extremely one-sided. In each of these cases, the bankruptcy happened because the P3 agreed to caps on the tolls they could charge and gambled that they could make up for it with volume (if extreme sprawl growth happened). The growth never came, but their deal said they couldn't raise tolls accordingly.

I'm not seeing the downside for the public though - it sucks for the investors, but the public still gets a brand new freeway out of it, paid on the backs of Wall St instead of taxpayers. Supposedly Mitch Daniels was smart enough to foresee this in Indiana, so he soaked the Indiana Toll Road buyer for billions in upfront cash that was used to upgrade roads all over the state. When the buyer went bankrupt after a few years, it wasn't the state's problem.

There are also countless examples of well-managed toll roads, turnpikes and toll bridges that are run by public authorities. In good times they can self-fund on tolls, and in lean times they can either raise tolls or get a cash infusion from the state. Even a private road could be consistently profitable if the deal gives them the right to raise tolls when they need to. And tolls give policymakers a huge lever to influence the way people get around - if you're worried about congestion in certain areas, raise the tolls and watch drivers switch to alternative routes or transit.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Is virtually any rail service on earth outside of an extraordinarily small number of high speed routes profitable? Why do we keep equating profit with necessity and benefit? Nearly every key connection made by railways the world over does so at a loss.

Let me say it differently. If investing in a Salt Lake to Boise route comes at the expense of a 35 minute trip between Philadelphia and NYC, what's the point?

The latter will generate for more additional economic activity than some line between two cities where nobody takes public transit to begin with.

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Let me say it differently. If investing in a Salt Lake to Boise route comes at the expense of a 35 minute trip between Philadelphia and NYC, what's the point?

The latter will generate for more additional economic activity than some line between two cities where nobody takes public transit to begin with.

Yes, that makes sense but it is not politically feasible to only spend the $60B in Amtrak funding to improve service on the Northeast Corridor, the Surfliner route, and the upper Midwest.

[Randomguy34]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Let me say it differently. If investing in a Salt Lake to Boise route comes at the expense of a 35 minute trip between Philadelphia and NYC, what's the point?

The projects though aren't in competition with each other. The cost to upgrade Philly to NYC into HSR with 35 minute travel times is in a completely different league than adding one train from Salt Lake City to Boise. This is like saying investing in a BRT route will divert funds from a new subway line. The cost and scope aren't comparable.

Now, if your argument was the cost spent on Salt Lake to Boise would be better spent adding 1-2 trains from Philly to NYC, then you make a good point. It would certainly be more economically beneficial to fund more trains Philly-NYC. Amtrak though is a public service, and since everyone pays taxes to help fund it, then it makes everyone deserves some level of service. While it's not better economically, it does help build political support for future expansions and upgrades into HSR. It's why Wisconsin is excited to help expand Amtrak across the state, while Indiana wants nothing to do with Amtrak, despite both states bordering the nation's rail hub.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Yes, that makes sense but it is not politically feasible to only spend the $60B in Amtrak funding to improve service on the Northeast Corridor, the Surfliner route, and the upper Midwest.

True. But this is one of the main issues with a national rail system. Boise shouldn't get Amtrak service or expanded service, period.

Why doesn't the states that surround, say, the NE Corridor come together and start their own agency? It would be much fairer to the rest of the nation and would probably prompt more service upgrades.

[jpIllInoIs]

Updated presentation materials:
TCMC 2nd Daily train St.Paul-Chicago

Most of the build outs are along the Mississippi River cities and consist of a few sidings being lengthened or upgraded to mainline, a few smoothed out curves and a few crossovers.

The Twin Cities-Milwaukee-Chicago (TCMC) Intercity Passenger Rail Project adds a second daily round-trip passenger train on the 411-mile corridor between Chicago, Illinois and Twin Cities (St. Paul and Minneapolis) in Minnesota. The TCMC Service will follow Amtrak's existing long-distance Empire Builder route. The new service will complement the existing Empire Builder schedule, providing travel flexibility with both a morning and mid-day departure from Chicago and St. Paul.

The partners on this project ​include:

​Wisconsin, Minnesota and Illinois Departments of Transportation
Amtrak
​Federal Railroad Administration
La Crosse Area Planning Committee
Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authorit

[202_Cyclist]

In other Amtrak news, Amtrak is having a great deal on their USA Rail Pass. You can take 10 segments for $299. You have to take the first trip within 120 days and then travel within 30 days of the first trip.

This is an especially good deal if you travel in the Northeast Corridor with the higher ticket prices. The sale ends tomorrow.

[Paniolo Man]

Amtrak seeks carbuilder interest in new long-distance fleet: Analysis

Trains.com | By Bob Johnston | January 19, 2023








Seems like they are looking to put out an RFP later this year, no info on who the ten interested companies are though.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

True. But this is one of the main issues with a national rail system. Boise shouldn't get Amtrak service or expanded service, period.

Why doesn't the states that surround, say, the NE Corridor come together and start their own agency? It would be much fairer to the rest of the nation and would probably prompt more service upgrades.

I've thought about this. Virginia -->> Maine should just have it's own train authority. Hell, you could just do Virginia -->> Massachusetts.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

Amtrak seeks carbuilder interest in new long-distance fleet: Analysis

Oh please god of trains... NO MORE STAINLESS STEEL.... PLEEEEEAAAASSSSEEEE!!!

[ardecila]

As others have pointed out, these cars will have to last many decades and will probably need to return to service after serious collisions and derailments. They just run in an extremely hostile environment. This fact will never change so long as the national rail network is operated by private companies whose only motive is to cut costs year after year.

I love Euro rolling stock for commuter and regional operations, but LD trains really do need to be built like tanks.

[202_Cyclist]

Biden to return to Baltimore to tout large tunnel project designed to address Northeast Corridor rail bottlenecks

By Jeff Barker
Baltimore Sun
Jan. 23, 2023

"President Joe Biden will return to Baltimore next week to tout federal funding to replace the roughly 150-year-old Baltimore and Potomac Tunnel, a project the administration says will address the largest bottleneck for rail commuters between Washington, D.C., and New Jersey.

The Democratic president will visit Jan. 30 as part of a two-day trip with a New York City stop, as well, to showcase funding under the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.

The funding isn’t new; Congress approved the $1 trillion legislation containing the tunnel money in November 2021. But Biden considers the package a signature achievement because of its potential effect on roads, tunnels and other infrastructure, and because it is the result of a rare partnership of congressional Democrats and Republicans..."

[202_Cyclist]

You could even say this is a big fucking deal.

[202_Cyclist]

150-year-old Baltimore tunnel will get $4 billion federal boost

By Luz Lazo
30 January 2023
Washington Post

"President Biden on Monday announced that more than $4 billion in federal infrastructure money will help to replace the Baltimore and Potomac Tunnel, a crucial piece of the Northeast rail network that is a source of delays 150 years after it was built.

The Reconstruction-era tunnel — the oldest in the Northeast — is Amtrak's biggest chokepoint between Washington and New Jersey. Trains crawl at 30 mph through its curves under West Baltimore, creating delays up and down the busy Northeast Corridor. When a new tunnel is complete, trains will reach speeds of 100 mph.

Biden visited to the decrepit structure Monday in the first of three stops this week to highlight projects that will benefit from the $1 trillion infrastructure law he signed in 2021. He pledged that the new federal aid will help to launch tunnel construction as early as this year..."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/trans...nfrastructure/

[Busy Bee]

Finally.

[ardecila]

I don't quite understand the plan for B&P - Amtrak will bore two single-track tunnels for electrified passenger service only (they will not have the ventilation for diesel powered trains).

So what happens to freight service and MARC? Do those trains need to detour to Charles St tunnel while the historical B&P tunnel gets a total rehab - or they single-track the B&P tunnel once Amtrak is out of the way?

[DannyP]

Originally Posted by ardecila

I don't quite understand the plan for B&P - Amtrak will bore two single-track tunnels for electrified passenger service only (they will not have the ventilation for diesel powered trains).

So what happens to freight service and MARC? Do those trains need to detour to Charles St tunnel while the historical B&P tunnel gets a total rehab - or they single-track the B&P tunnel once Amtrak is out of the way?

IIRC, MARC will convert to electric by the time this finishes. Freight will probably detour until rehab is complete.

[ardecila]

I haven't seen any indication that MARC is going electric - if anything, they are abandoning their electric locos and running diesel under wire on the Penn Line.

Supposedly Amtrak charges too much for electricity to commuter operators, but this only seems to affect MARC and MBTA, but not SEPTA/NJT/LIRR/MNRR, all of which use Amtrak's traction system to some extent.

[Randomguy34]

Maine DOT proposes $3 million for pilot of Brunswick-Rockland RDC service

Most passenger rail startups consume cash by beginning with a ridership study, but that isn’t happening here. As Midcoast’s Smith puts it, “We can just run the damn service and see if it works!”

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-revi...d-rdc-service/