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  #81  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2023, 7:24 PM
sammyg sammyg is offline
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Will the new 3 Cs proposal be high-speed or the crappy 79mph train proposed in 2010?
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  #82  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2023, 9:19 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by sammyg View Post
Will the new 3 Cs proposal be high-speed or the crappy 79mph train proposed in 2010?
79mph top speed, with an average speed likely around 45mph.

The 3C's track is already very busy with tons of freight activity.

Double-tracking the single-track sections out in the country and triple or quadruple-tracking the city approaches will be extremely expensive.

The early 1980s plans for Japanese-built bullet trains across Ohio were big-time. Tunnels and 10+ mile viaducts built over existing freight track corridors to enable high speed approaches to the cities.
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  #83  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2023, 9:39 PM
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When we used to dream big...

If Dukakis hadn't worn that dumb helmet we'd probably be 30 years ahead of where we are as a country.
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  #84  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2023, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
There are almost zero trains on the line to Athens now, since coal isn't being brought up from West Virginia on it anymore. They could start running old Amtrak equipment on it tomorrow since there is likely no need to build even a single physical upgrade other than platforms.
This is one of the unintended benefits as coal becomes less used: the potential for buying up unused rail lines and running passenger trains on them.
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  #85  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2023, 5:22 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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This is one of the unintended benefits as coal becomes less used: the potential for buying up unused rail lines and running passenger trains on them.
I spoke too soon. I didn't realize that there is a 7-mile track gap between Nelsonville and Athens. I lived out there before Google Earth so i never really understood where the railroads used to run. I didn't make the mental connection that the active freight railroad that parallels the bike trail to Nelsonville for about 10 miles doesn't actually end up in Nelsonville. Instead it heads due north and not straight to Columbus.

Rebuilding 7 miles of track on the still-preserved ROW isn't a huge project. They'll just have to rebuild the bike trail next to it with a fence between them.

Here is the spot where the bike trail and the active freight lines diverge:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/At...!4d-82.1012554

Follow the bike trail northwesterly to Nelsonville and you'll understand the gap.
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  #86  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2023, 7:02 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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I used the measure tool - the distance between Athens and Columbus using the Hocking Valley Railroad - the shortest route - is just about 75 miles. The route using the railroad connection that still physically exists is 88 miles. Not much farther, but the existing route appears to be somewhat windier so higher speed travel might not be possible.

It has several short tunnels, including this one under a rural airstrip:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pe...!4d-82.1995434

I'm curious to know if this tunnel predates the airport or if it was built specifically for this runway.
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  #87  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 8:58 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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News:
https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinna...Pos=0#cxrecs_s

Quote:
The Cincinnati-Cleveland line would run three times per day and include a new Amtrak station in Sharonville. The trip between Cincinnati and Cleveland would take about 5 hours, with the time potentially being reduced as track improvements are made. The Cincinnati-Chicago line would operate four times per day, with an estimated 6 hours and 10 minutes travel time between Cincinnati and Chicago.

The article discusses service between Cincinnati and Nashville via Louisville, plus Chicago>Nashville via Indianapolis and Louisville. The article does not specify whether Nashville to Cleveland would be through-running or if passengers would have to change trains. Also, no mention of a bar car for bachelorette parties.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 10:56 PM
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Bachelorette parties might be a lucrative market for Amtrak, but honestly I'm fine if they don't encourage groups of women (or men) behaving badly. It's barely acceptable on a short haul flight, let alone a 5-hour train ride.

I assume Brightline West will have lots of bachelorette groups when it opens, but that's true high-speed rail and only a 90 minute train ride to Vegas..
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  #89  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 8:29 PM
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Ohio taking 1st step in expanding passenger rail service
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COLUMBUS – Governor Mike DeWine has directed the Ohio Rail Development Commission to apply for the first phase of funding to study expanding passenger rail service in Ohio.

The Federal Railroad Administration’s Corridor Identification and Development program would assist the state in assessing potential intercity passenger rail corridors.

“This is the first step of many in this process. We have a lot of questions that need to be answered before we make any commitments,” said DeWine. “The information we gather from this effort will help us make informed decisions about federal opportunities for passenger rail in Ohio.”

The state has identified two corridors to advance for consideration: Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati and Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit.
https://www.ashlandsource.com/news/o...32cec7c6f.html
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  #90  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2023, 9:23 PM
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Just to reiterate:

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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Can a mod change the title of this thread to something less stupid that actually reflects the conversation we're having here? Something like "Ohio Intercity Rail Development" would suffice.
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  #91  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2023, 1:54 AM
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To determine if the trains will be too slow on the 3C proposed rail corridor, one must first determine what the bread and butter, make or break, business is?
Is it (A) Columbus to Cleveland, and Columbus to Cincinnati, or (B) Cleveland to Cincinnati? It is important to make that designation, because miles travel is a major factor in determining elapse time and average speeds the trains need.

Again, I am going to suggest an elapse time of 3 hours or less is required for trains to compete with cars and planes. So milage is important.
The highway distances between Cleveland and Columbus is 145 miles, and between Columbus and Cincinnati is 107 miles. Therefore, it is 252 miles between Cleveland and Cincinnatil

3 hours elapse time goal math:
145/3 = 48.33 mph average
107/3 = 35.67 mph average
252/3 = 84 mph average.

To average 35.67 mph, existing 79 mph trains over Class 4 tracks can easily be achieved with minimum upgrades to the rail line. The major cost will be limited to buying new rolling stock and subsidizing the train's losses. That is assuming the tracks are already meeting Class 4 conditions, and not Class 3.
To average 48.33 mph, existing 79 mph trains over Class 4 tracks is at the limit, more than a few upgrades to the existing rail line concentrating on eliminating slowing down of the trains in congested freight train areas, like building a few flyovers would most likely be needed.
To average 84 mph average, a major reconstruction of the rail line would be needed eliminating all at grade crossings much like the Class 7 NEC tracks with trains going 125 mph maximum speeds or upgrading the rail corridor to the Lincoln Service in Illinois Class 6 tracks as a minimum upgrade with 110 mph maximum speeds.

I do not think 186 mph (300 km/h) maximum speed trains will be needed Cleveland to Cincinnati to achieve less than 3 hours elapse times. Never-the-less, major upgrades all along the existing rail corridor will be needed.
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  #92  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2023, 2:47 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Again, I am going to suggest an elapse time of 3 hours or less is required for trains to compete with cars and planes. So mileage is important.
The highway distances between Cleveland and Columbus is 145 miles, and between Columbus and Cincinnati is 107 miles. Therefore, it is 252 miles between Cleveland and Cincinnatil
But the planned rail distances are longer. Cincinnati>Columbus will be about 130 miles because it plans to deflect to Dayton, which has about 1 million people.

The more direct route, now known as the I&O Midland Subdivision, is owned and operated by a regional independent short line, not the area heavyweights, CSX and Norflolk-Southern.

This short line loosely parallels the east side of I-71 for 107~ miles, but critically passes through the wealthiest area of Cincinnati, Indian Hill, along with Madeira and Loveland, which are also quite wealthy.

This line is generally single-track and doesn't have many purpose-built grade crossings or gates out in the country, but it has almost no traffic so it's wide open for regular passenger service.
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  #93  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2023, 3:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
But the planned rail distances are longer. Cincinnati>Columbus will be about 130 miles because it plans to deflect to Dayton, which has about 1 million people.

The more direct route, now known as the I&O Midland Subdivision, is owned and operated by a regional independent short line, not the area heavyweights, CSX and Norflolk-Southern.

This short line loosely parallels the east side of I-71 for 107~ miles, but critically passes through the wealthiest area of Cincinnati, Indian Hill, along with Madeira and Loveland, which are also quite wealthy.

This line is generally single-track and doesn't have many purpose-built grade crossings or gates out in the country, but it has almost no traffic so it's wide open for regular passenger service.
Well - 130 miles is certainly less than 147 miles, i would place that in the doable list with few upgrades to the track - again assuming it is Class 4 track and not Class 3. I would be surprised to find Class 4 tracks being maintained on a little used rail corridor. If it is class 3, refurbishing the track to Class 4 standard will have to be done - and that is not cheap but neither is it very expensive.
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  #94  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2023, 5:28 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Well - 130 miles is certainly less than 147 miles, i would place that in the doable list with few upgrades to the track - again assuming it is Class 4 track and not Class 3. I would be surprised to find Class 4 tracks being maintained on a little used rail corridor. If it is class 3, refurbishing the track to Class 4 standard will have to be done - and that is not cheap but neither is it very expensive.
I believe that the entire planned route is Class 4. The whole thing is double track between Cincinnati and Dayton except for about a mile near Dayton, where it single-tracks before joining another double-track line.

There are 44 grade crossings between Cincinnati and Dayton.

The remnants of Dayton's old station still exists on an elevated section:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Da...16zL20vMDI5Y3I


26 grade crossings between Dayton and Springfield
32 between Springfield and Columbus

Total: 102 grade crossings on the planned route between Cincinnati and Dayton. $15 million per grade separation = $1.53 billion to fully grade separate the line.

Midland Subdivision Route: 113 grade crossings between Cincinnati and Columbus.


So about a wash between the two routes, except I suspect that many of the grade crossings on the Midland route would be much simpler and less expensive to construct, since many more of them are straightforward country roads. By contrast, the planned route goes through urbanized areas where many of the more difficult grade separations have already been built.
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  #95  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2023, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
I believe that the entire planned route is Class 4. The whole thing is double track between Cincinnati and Dayton except for about a mile near Dayton, where it single-tracks before joining another double-track line.

There are 44 grade crossings between Cincinnati and Dayton.

The remnants of Dayton's old station still exists on an elevated section:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Da...16zL20vMDI5Y3I

26 grade crossings between Dayton and Springfield
32 between Springfield and Columbus

Total: 102 grade crossings on the planned route between Cincinnati and Dayton. $15 million per grade separation = $1.53 billion to fully grade separate the line.

Midland Subdivision Route: 113 grade crossings between Cincinnati and Columbus.

So about a wash between the two routes, except I suspect that many of the grade crossings on the Midland route would be much simpler and less expensive to construct, since many more of them are straightforward country roads. By contrast, the planned route goes through urbanized areas where many of the more difficult grade separations have already been built.
I'm not sure why you are counting grade crossings for a train going from Cincinnati to Columbus via Dayton? 79 mph max speed trains over Class 4 track easily travels the 130 miles or so well within 3 hours. Golly, to travel that far in just two hours the train's average speeds only needs to be 65 mph. Definitely more than what a 79 mph max speed train could achieve with multiple stops, but not so fast that all at grade crossings need to be eliminated.

Eurostar trains on HSR tracks and running in the Chunnel for a long distance with limited stops average 59% of their maximum speed of 186 mph (300 km/h). Using that same formula and percentage, 2 hours elapse time at an average of 65 mph the train's maximum speed only needs to be 110 mph (math=65/0.59 =110). That's Class 6 tracks, not Class 7.

If the desired elapse time was 3 hours vs 2, 79 mph maximum speed trains on Class 4 tracks should be fast enough.

You only need to consider true HSR trains and Above Class tracks with zero at grade crossing if you desired an elapse time Cincinnati to Cleveland in 3 hours.

Again, what you consider fast enough really depends on distance and your desired elapse time. And the faster you want to go, the more track improvements and therefore costs are needed to make that happen.
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  #96  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2023, 3:36 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
I'm not sure why you are counting grade crossings for a train going from Cincinnati to Columbus via Dayton? 79 mph max speed trains over Class 4 track easily travels the 130 miles or so well within 3 hours.
There is a lot of political pressure to have these trains stop at suburban locations and in small towns (i.e. one stop per county). If there are only going to be three trains per day in each direction, there aren't going to be any expresses that skip these intermediate stations.

There is also a lot of pressure to have no train horns at grade crossings, increasing the need for grade separations.

The speed limit on I-71 between Cincinnati and Columbus is 70mph, meaning many drive 80mph. A worst-case scenario train won't get to Columbus before a lead foot driver makes it to Cleveland.
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  #97  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2023, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
There is a lot of political pressure to have these trains stop at suburban locations and in small towns (i.e. one stop per county). If there are only going to be three trains per day in each direction, there aren't going to be any expresses that skip these intermediate stations.

There is also a lot of pressure to have no train horns at grade crossings, increasing the need for grade separations.

The speed limit on I-71 between Cincinnati and Columbus is 70mph, meaning many drive 80mph. A worst-case scenario train won't get to Columbus before a lead foot driver makes it to Cleveland.
If the train is going to stop every 20-30 miles at every town along the way, that's meets the definition of a local or all stop train and not an express train when discussing intercity travel. Few local trains in the entire world go much faster than 80 mph in local services. With a top end of 80 mph or so, in rural areas few grade separations are needed, they will only be built where there is heavy highway traffic.
Quite zones do not need grade separations in and of itself, but gates across the forward inlet and outlet in both directions of the tracks so highway vehicles can not drive around them, or a median curve doing the same thing.

DART is building the silver line today between DFW airport and Plano using Stadler FLIRT DMU trains on the ex-Cotton Belt rail corridor. With station stops averaging every 4 miles or so, the maximum speed of the train will be 75 mph, which it will rarely go faster than 60 mph. It averages a sole station at every city long the route. except Richardson and Plano, which gets two stations. But it is a local regional train, not an intercity train with statewide service. Note, since construction has begun, two grade separations have been dropped with at grade crossings instead. The quiet zones will still be maintained.
Ohio would probably desire a different trains, such as the Siemens trains Amtrak is buying elsewhere for an intercity train service. Never-the;less, DART is laying brand new Class 4 tracks for that corridor, and all Ohio would need between Cincinnati and Columbus. Costs for the 20 or so mile long corridor with new trains, approaching $2 billion.

Now take that $2 billion for 20 miles and prorate that to 130 miles. we are discussing costs 6-7 times more, over $12 billion for a brand new Class 4 rail corridor between Cincinnati and Columbus. If the politicians are suggesting far less money to initiate this train service, they will be running on old, beat-up freight tracks with a terrible ride.
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  #98  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2023, 6:47 AM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
If the politicians are suggesting far less money to initiate this train service, they will be running on old, beat-up freight tracks with a terrible ride.
...like what currently exists.

I searched for The Cardinal and found this...a train no fewer than eight hours behind schedule. So this is an every-other-day-in-the-middle-of-the-night train that was wildly behind schedule, making its once-per-year daytime appearance in Ohio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkZEw-74rWg

Look at this sad little every-other-day train. Mismatched cars.

There should be two of these per day (4X current traffic), with a real dining car instead of the sad snack car.

Last edited by jmecklenborg; Feb 13, 2023 at 3:31 PM.
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  #99  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2023, 4:42 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
There is a lot of political pressure to have these trains stop at suburban locations and in small towns (i.e. one stop per county). If there are only going to be three trains per day in each direction, there aren't going to be any expresses that skip these intermediate stations.

There is also a lot of pressure to have no train horns at grade crossings, increasing the need for grade separations.

The speed limit on I-71 between Cincinnati and Columbus is 70mph, meaning many drive 80mph. A worst-case scenario train won't get to Columbus before a lead foot driver makes it to Cleveland.
double track.

express & local.

go big or go home ohio.

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  #100  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2023, 4:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
If the train is going to stop every 20-30 miles at every town along the way, that's meets the definition of a local or all stop train and not an express train when discussing intercity travel. Few local trains in the entire world go much faster than 80 mph in local services. With a top end of 80 mph or so, in rural areas few grade separations are needed, they will only be built where there is heavy highway traffic.
Quite zones do not need grade separations in and of itself, but gates across the forward inlet and outlet in both directions of the tracks so highway vehicles can not drive around them, or a median curve doing the same thing.

DART is building the silver line today between DFW airport and Plano using Stadler FLIRT DMU trains on the ex-Cotton Belt rail corridor. With station stops averaging every 4 miles or so, the maximum speed of the train will be 75 mph, which it will rarely go faster than 60 mph. It averages a sole station at every city long the route. except Richardson and Plano, which gets two stations. But it is a local regional train, not an intercity train with statewide service. Note, since construction has begun, two grade separations have been dropped with at grade crossings instead. The quiet zones will still be maintained.
Ohio would probably desire a different trains, such as the Siemens trains Amtrak is buying elsewhere for an intercity train service. Never-the;less, DART is laying brand new Class 4 tracks for that corridor, and all Ohio would need between Cincinnati and Columbus. Costs for the 20 or so mile long corridor with new trains, approaching $2 billion.

Now take that $2 billion for 20 miles and prorate that to 130 miles. we are discussing costs 6-7 times more, over $12 billion for a brand new Class 4 rail corridor between Cincinnati and Columbus. If the politicians are suggesting far less money to initiate this train service, they will be running on old, beat-up freight tracks with a terrible ride.
the cinci bound trains will be going to dayton, then columbus, not directly to columbus. if it ever happens.

there is no call for a direct cinci to cols train. those cities have nothing to do with each other as it is.

columbus is basically 3/4 quitter ex-clevelanders, 1/4 hillbillies. cinci keeps to its own world.
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