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  #861  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CityAmateur View Post
Arguably California is the only US state with the size and wealth to house 2 alpha cities and even then SF is a high status Beta rather than an alpha.
GaWC ranks LA an alpha city and SF an alpha-minus. And, while that is based on very specific criteria and there are certainly other ways to rank cities, I'd say generally that reflects the reality on the ground in California, a state with a geography that does not lend itself to a single dominant city.

To the limited extent that people who live 217 miles north of San Francisco in Redding need or want something from a large metropolis, San Francisco fills that niche. Meanwhile, Los Angeles fills that same niche for people who live 228 miles southeast in Calexico. It is not necessary in the ordinary course of living for Northern Californians to travel to Los Angeles, nor for Southern Californians to travel to San Francisco.
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  #862  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
GaWC ranks LA an alpha city and SF an alpha-minus. And, while that is based on very specific criteria and there are certainly other ways to rank cities, I'd say generally that reflects the reality on the ground in California, a state with a geography that does not lend itself to a single dominant city.

To the limited extent that people who live 217 miles north of San Francisco in Redding need or want something from a large metropolis, San Francisco fills that niche. Meanwhile, Los Angeles fills that same niche for people who live 228 miles southeast in Calexico. It is not necessary in the ordinary course of living for Northern Californians to travel to Los Angeles, nor for Southern Californians to travel to San Francisco.
There is probably a more or less defined line on the map between "Giants land" and Dodgers land and that more or less defines the cultural hinterland of both cities.
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  #863  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Here's an interesting ranking of cities from a Wiki article -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global..._Network#Alpha


It's surprising that Montreal ranks higher than DC, and on par with SF, and San Jose ranks on the same level as Austin and Detroit.
Montreal was Canada's premier city for over a century. During that time Montreal built extensive economic ties around the world and secured itself a slew of alpha city baubles like the International Civil Aviation Organization, IATA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, Secretariat of the Convention on Biological Diversity, etc. It's a long list with over 60 Governmental and Non-Governmental International Organizations based there. The city hosted both Expo 67, the 1976 Olympics, and is arguably the 2nd most important city in the francophone world. Toronto may have zoomed ahead but Montreal still packs a punch internationally. It's something largely lost on anglophones in North America.

Montreal is placed where it should be placed. I'm more surprised that DC is listed as Beta+.
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Last edited by isaidso; Apr 17, 2021 at 1:45 AM.
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  #864  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 1:49 AM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Montreal is placed where it should be placed. I'm more surprised that DC is listed as Beta+.
It's pretty hard to swallow a ranking on global connectivity that puts Washington DC in the same rank as Lima.
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  #865  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 1:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Here's an interesting ranking of cities from a Wiki article -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global..._Network#Alpha


It's surprising that Montreal ranks higher than DC, and on par with SF, and San Jose ranks on the same level as Austin and Detroit.
There have been tons of discussions on SSC about GaWC over 15 years. The methodology is very outdated and it's largely considered a very poor ranking since it is essentially based on (a) ties to London through global capital, and (b) importance in accountancy, advertising, banking/finance, insurance, law, and management consultancy: https://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/rb/rb300.html

Which is how you get these crazy results:
  • Dubai is more important than Paris and Tokyo
  • Luxembourg and Prague are more important than Washington
  • Dublin is more important than San Francisco
  • Beirut is more important than Seattle
  • Manama is more important than Osaka
  • Nicosia is more important than Charlotte
  • Bratislava is more important than Detroit, Austin, and San Diego

If it doesn't pass the smell test, best throw it in the toilet and flush.

The researchers have even admitted the ranking is extremely biased against American cities:
"But the USA is a special case with its cities being reported as under-represented in the world city network in 2000 (Taylor 2004; Taylor and Lang 2004) and 2004 (Taylor and Aranya 2008). The 2008 results continue and perhaps accentuate this trend (Derudder et al 2010). This appears to be a result of the US home market for advanced producer services being far greater than for any other country. This has two key effects. First, foreign firms find it hard to penetrate the market and often choose to represent clients through just a New York office. Second, US service firms have less reason to gamble on global expansion – compare a Chicago management consultancy company with an Amsterdam company, the former can make better profits through domestic expansion, the former can only expand in a big way through new cross-border work. Both effects lead to a tendency for US cities other than New York being less integrated in the world city network than might be expected."
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  #866  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 2:01 AM
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
It's pretty hard to swallow a ranking on global connectivity that puts Washington DC in the same rank as Lima.
Or Beirut, literally a city teetering on the precipice of bankruptcy and societal collapse: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-l...-idUSKBN2C31N9
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  #867  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 2:12 AM
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
It's pretty hard to swallow a ranking on global connectivity that puts Washington DC in the same rank as Lima.
Even with some of the reputable studies some things don't make sense. That doesn't mean none of it makes sense. Most of their list looks roughly right to me. It should be noted that DC may have been placed in the same tranche as Lima but it's not ranked the same; it's 14 spots higher. DC is still too low though. The link below shows the exact ranking. So they have Sydney in 10th, LA in 11th, Toronto in 12th, and so on.

https://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/world2020t.html
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Last edited by isaidso; Apr 17, 2021 at 2:23 AM.
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  #868  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 2:33 AM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Even with some of the reputable studies some things don't make sense. That doesn't mean none of it makes sense. Most of their list looks roughly right to me. It should be noted that DC may have been placed in the same tranche as Lima but it's not ranked the same; it's 14 spots higher. DC is still too low though. The link below shows the exact ranking. So they have Sydney in 10th, LA in 11th, Toronto in 12th, and so on.

https://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/world2020t.html
And Lisbon is 3 spots higher than Washington DC, because Portuguese accounting firms clearly need to expand into other nations in order to thrive, while DC accounting firms simply don't.

It's unfortunate there isn't a better, more generalized ranking of global cities, because this one is not well-suited for generalized use even among city fans such as ourselves.
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  #869  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 3:30 AM
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Originally Posted by CityAmateur View Post
Arguably California is the only US state with the size and wealth to house 2 alpha cities
Looking into the far future, I'd say California also has room for an additional alpha- city with San Diego, a solid beta city with Sac, and several beta- cities in the CV.

I also think CA will eventually produce 2 or 3 more million+ cities on the coast (if they can get their act together with development policy). Santa Maria, Salinas, and Eureka all have quite a bit of room to grow.. particularly Santa Maria. I could see Santa Maria becoming a metro area the size of Salt Lake City or even Portland in this century
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  #870  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 4:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jbermingham123 View Post
Looking into the far future, I'd say California also has room for an additional alpha- city with San Diego, a solid beta city with Sac, and several beta- cities in the CV.

I also think CA will eventually produce 2 or 3 more million+ cities on the coast (if they can get their act together with development policy). Santa Maria, Salinas, and Eureka all have quite a bit of room to grow.. particularly Santa Maria. I could see Santa Maria becoming a metro area the size of Salt Lake City or even Portland in this century
That won't happen, because GaWC is a joke.

According to GaWC, San Diego isn't important enough to surpass juggernauts with 300,000 people like *checks notes* Nicosia, Cyprus.



Also, Santa Maria is growing by 1,000 people per year. At that rate it won't even hit Portland's current population for 2,500 years. Considering California is rapidly losing demographic momentum due to high housing costs, I'd say the chances of Santa Maria becoming a metro of 3 million are extremely low.
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  #871  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 5:38 AM
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GaWC isn't necessarily a joke, if it's used in its very narrow context with explanation -- and not as a stand-in for any larger statements about cities' prominence or influence.

And some of the problem might be the people behind the study. The iterations I've seen have taken some digging on their website to really find out how limited it's been.

News outlets suck it up without seeming to grasp this sometimes. So a ton of people fall for it.

Unless I'm being too unfair, the authors and news outlets share a lot of blame. Readers do too, for generally not thinking critically.
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  #872  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
GaWC isn't necessarily a joke, if it's used in its very narrow context with explanation -- and not as a stand-in for any larger statements about cities' prominence or influence.

And some of the problem might be the people behind the study. The iterations I've seen have taken some digging on their website to really find out how limited it's been.

News outlets suck it up without seeming to grasp this sometimes. So a ton of people fall for it.

Unless I'm being too unfair, the authors and news outlets share a lot of blame. Readers do too, for generally not thinking critically.
City comparisons are plagued with issues of methodology and need to be seen as what they are...insights from a certain angle.

I remember years ago being surprised at how big the population of US metro areas were compared to Europeans. EG one would see NY with c.22,000,000 and London with c.9,000,000. Dig a little and we see that the Consolidated Stat areas they are using in the US are the size of Scotland!!!

It's not that this is not legitimate. It is in fact legitimate. It's just measuring things with differing metrics.
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  #873  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 10:59 AM
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The New York urban area with 21 million people is not the size of Scotland

According to demographia New York urban area covers 4700 square miles

How many people live in the inner 4700 square miles around London ?
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  #874  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
The New York urban area with 21 million people is not the size of Scotland

According to demographia New York urban area covers 4700 square miles

How many people live in the inner 4700 square miles around London ?

I'm not being literal nor am I referring to Demographia. I'm referring to US Consolidated statistical area metrics compared to European ones.

Its not that these metrics are unacceptable or wrong. Its just that they are different and trawl much larger areas. It is very difficult to make international comparisons between cities.
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  #875  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jbermingham123 View Post
Looking into the far future, I'd say California also has room for an additional alpha- city with San Diego, a solid beta city with Sac, and several beta- cities in the CV.

I also think CA will eventually produce 2 or 3 more million+ cities on the coast (if they can get their act together with development policy). Santa Maria, Salinas, and Eureka all have quite a bit of room to grow.. particularly Santa Maria. I could see Santa Maria becoming a metro area the size of Salt Lake City or even Portland in this century
i had to look up santa maria, then i realized thats its californias central coast style bbq heartland.

the town is built more like a desert california city - its no SLO or whatever with good historic bones, but a large expanse of comfortable ranch houses in a perfect climate near the sea. nonetheless i hope the central coast doesnt develop a massive city because frankly i’d like to retire there.
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  #876  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
The New York urban area with 21 million people is not the size of Scotland

According to demographia New York urban area covers 4700 square miles

How many people live in the inner 4700 square miles around London ?
I’d guess something between 16-17 million. London UA houses 14.3 million people in 5,000 km2, about 1,900 sq miles.

Taking an area equal to New York CSA, than London is more populated. Above 24 million for 22.7 million of New York.
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  #877  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
It seems like big capital cities do well, but small ones do not, regardless of where they are. For example, I don't hear much about Carson City, the capital of Nevada despite being in a fast growing state, or Tallahassee FL despite being in a very big state.
You've only demonstrated that smaller cities generally tend to be more obscure, but that doesn't mean they aren't doing well. The small capital cities that are doing well have more than being the seat of state government going them economically or they benefit from being a part of or close to a sizable metropolitan area. Santa Fe, Annapolis, Lincoln, Olympia, and Salem are good examples, and I'd throw Tallahassee in there also.
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  #878  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 12:35 PM
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GaWC is crap. It's really a "business connections to London" survey, which, if used as a proxy for relative city importance, already invalidates the results.

Maybe in 1860 or so, it would have made some sense, if just a survey for the Anglosphere. London has a significantly smaller economy than LA these days, and business networks are complex and not Anglosphere-oriented, necessarily.
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  #879  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
The New York urban area with 21 million people is not the size of Scotland

According to demographia New York urban area covers 4700 square miles

How many people live in the inner 4700 square miles around London ?
In rounded figures, the NY-NJ-PA MSA has something over 8,000 Sq. Miles and a population just over 19,000,000. London plus the South East England region has just short of 8,000 Sq miles and a population somewhere around 17,600,000 but my intention is not to compare but to point to the fact that differing metrics and differing ideas of what constitutes importance inevitably impact on how we compare and contrast cities and render the project difficult.
It is much easier to compare say Osaka and Tokyo or Chicago and NY or Milan and Rome than it is to compare say Tokyo and Shanghai or indeed NY and London because of these issues.
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  #880  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2021, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
GaWC is crap. It's really a "business connections to London" survey, which, if used as a proxy for relative city importance, already invalidates the results.

Maybe in 1860 or so, it would have made some sense, if just a survey for the Anglosphere. London has a significantly smaller economy than LA these days, and business networks are complex and not Anglosphere-oriented, necessarily.
London has the most connected city in the world by a large margin. Pre covid, its airports handled 150 mi passengers against 120 mi from New York. In the past two decades, London in fact grew at New York expenses, reversing the both cities date post WWII.

Whether GaWC is British biased or not, nothing compares to your own (and most of this forum) American bias. Everything single thing must revolve around the US.
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