Power Shift: Cities

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa

Cleveland has NFL, MLB and NBA. Cincinnati has NFL, MLB, and MLS (one of the MLS teams with the largest fandom). Columbus, meanwhile, has only NHL and MLS (and almost lost its MLS team to Austin recently).

to a large extent, OSU football & basketball are the NFL and NBA teams for columbus.

college sports are a really, REALLY big deal in many places around the US.

unfortunately for columbus, the branding bump they get from it is greatly reduced compared to major league pro teams because the city name itself isn't a part of the team name.

[BillM]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is something I am missing in your comments on this. Care to elaborate?

As for Boston-Montreal (the post you were responding to), while obviously not the case within the US mindscape, I'd argue that Montreal's global prominence is at least roughly comparable to Boston's - though obviously not in the same areas or for the same reasons.

The other side of the coin comment questions whether Montreal would be more or less prominent if it was mainly English speaking.

I agree with you regarding Boston and Montreal. I thought the post that I responded to alluded to a distinction between the prominence of those cities.

[Acajack]

American city guru Jane Jacobs, who moved to Toronto eventually, published a book called "The Question of Separatism", in which she said that Quebec independence would be beneficial to Montreal as a city and metropolis. (Contrary to what most everyone was saying at the time.) Her view was that Toronto was destined to become what it has become since then, and that Montreal as a result would end up playing second fiddle to it.

Here is an excerpt:
https://english.republiquelibre.org/...al_and_Toronto

[edale]

For Ohio, I don't think there really is a clear dominant city. The 3Cs are just about equal in terms of metro population and economic output. Cincinnati is the oldest of the 3, and was definitely the most influential city in Ohio until Cleveland's rise around the turn of the century. For a while, Cleveland was definitely the king of the state, but it fell and fell hard...probably continuing to fall, by most metrics. Columbus is currently experiencing its boom period. It is growing fast, but it largely lacks the historical fabric and legacy grandeur that Cincinnati and Cleveland have. Growing up in the 90s, Columbus seemed like a total snooze and like a small city on the few visits I made. Even its airport seemed more like Dayton's than Cincinnati's (which was the Delta #2 hub for a while). All that is changing, and Columbus definitely has caught up quite a bit. If current trends hold, Columbus will start to pull away from the other two cities in a few decades.

[MolsonExport]

As the number 2 city in a G7 country, and by some measures the world's largest bilingual city, Montreal is more prominent globally, as a part of Canada than it would be as merely the metropolis of an independent Quebec.

Jane Jacobs was great as a commentator on cityscapes, but is not considered someone who is known for political insights.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

It's open to discussion whether Montreal still has more international prominence than Toronto.

Montreal is more prominent in Francophone countries, perhaps, but Toronto is far-and-away the most internationally prominent city in Canada. Far-and-away.

Originally Posted by Buckeye Nation 001

I get the sense that Columbus is the dominant city, if there's one city in Ohio that could be considered "dominant."

I'd agree with that if I had to, but all three of Ohio's cities seem pretty equal to me. If I had to rank them it'd be Columbus->Cincinnati->Cleveland but we're probably splitting hairs.

[Crawford]

From a growing-up-in-Michigan perspective, it always seemed like Cleveland-Cincy-Columbus. A pretty clear hierarchy.

Cleveland is still the largest population center and has the most weighty institutions. Cleveland Clinic, the symphony, the art museum, the tallest buildings, a (very limited) heavy rail system, etc.

[kool maudit]

An English-speaking Montreal with the run of its Canadian hinterland would have been one of the great treasures of the Anglosphere, and a place of more renown than present-day Toronto. That 400-year old city with its strange and turbulent history, its unprecedented architectural vernacular, dusted with real metropolitan power... it wouldn't have been right. But we think about it sometimes.

The price would have been the decapitation of French North America.

Even those English Montrealers who could never abide the latter still have a sore spot in their hearts over the former. It's one of those things.

I am now on my second of these little hyper-charged Nordic capitals and they're really quite something, I mean, I never quite fell in love with this town but it has two million people, a USD 65,000 GDP per capita, a crown of major household-name companies, a 100-station metro network... you can do a lot with a country of 10 million, or 5.5 if you are Denmark.

Which is to say I probably side with Jacobs on Montreal. A lot more than I once did, anyway.

[kool maudit]

Oh, and Boston's financial, academic and R&D power far outstrip Montreal's, although the two cities are very comparable as urban experiences, with the edge even going to Montreal, in my view.

Stockholm is also a more powerful city than Montreal, for what that's worth, with a larger GDP at half the population. But it's not as cool, and the young guys bring their laptops to the bars and talk about startups.










Our girl still sleeps in a bit on weekdays, but it's lovely when you're there.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Crawford

From a growing-up-in-Michigan perspective, it always seemed like Cleveland-Cincy-Columbus. A pretty clear hierarchy.

Cleveland is still the largest population center and has the most weighty institutions. Cleveland Clinic, the symphony, the art museum, the tallest buildings, a (very limited) heavy rail system, etc.

Same perspective from me up here. Let's not forget the rock and Roll hall of fame! Honestly, until Columbus was rewarded an NHL team, I thought of it the same way as Toledo.I heard about Columbus, but never knew it had THAT size to it, unlike both Cleveland and Cincinnati which I've always known about.

[hipster duck]

I had a world atlas when I was a kid which was probably published in the 1970s that had a close up of every major city in the world according to the British geographers of the time. The only two Chinese cities that made the cut were Beijing (Peking) and Shanghai, and they were ludicrously lacking in detail; only Montreal and Toronto made the cut for Canadian cities, and Toronto barely sprawled north of the 401.

The usual big American cities were there but, of course, being very dated, Atlanta, DFW, Houston, Miami and Phoenix were missing. Cleveland got a half page spread, which was about the same amount of space given over to cities like Berlin and Rome.

Cleveland looked like a big, sprawling industrial city with rail lines going in all directions. Steel mills were marked as "points of interest". I was really fascinated with Cleveland and I was surprised to learn that it was on a lake that shared a border with Ontario. Nobody I knew had been to Cleveland or talked about Cleveland.

To this day, I still think that Cleveland is probably the biggest, closest city to the Canadian border that most Canadians are completely oblivious to.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I had a world atlas when I was a kid which was probably published in the 1970s that had a close up of every major city in the world according to the British geographers of the time. The only two Chinese cities that made the cut were Beijing (Peking) and Shanghai, and they were ludicrously lacking in detail; only Montreal and Toronto made the cut for Canadian cities, and Toronto barely sprawled north of the 401.

The usual big American cities were there but, of course, being very dated, Atlanta, DFW, Houston, Miami and Phoenix were missing. Cleveland got a half page spread, which was about the same amount of space given over to cities like Berlin and Rome.

Cleveland looked like a big, sprawling industrial city with rail lines going in all directions. Steel mills were marked as "points of interest". I was really fascinated with Cleveland and I was surprised to learn that it was on a lake that shared a border with Ontario. Nobody I knew had been to Cleveland or talked about Cleveland.

To this day, I still think that Cleveland is probably the biggest, closest city to the Canadian border that most Canadians are completely oblivious to.

It's interesting how there's no sizable Canadian city on Lake Erie...

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

It's interesting how there's no sizable Canadian city on Lake Erie...

for all of its great lakes shoreline, ontario only developed two large cities of consequence, and both of them on lake ontario several dozen miles from each other.

large cities above niagara never developed on the canadian side.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Right, but this is the point. No one with any understanding of Canada seriously argues Toronto's status within Canada, yet Montreal, internationally, remains arguably as prominent as Toronto. Yet Toronto is totally dominant, almost analogous to Paris/France, or Tokyo/Japan. It's the undisputed economic, population and cultural hegemon.

My wife, well-educated, two masters degrees from elite U.S. universities, well-traveled, and lived her whole life in the Americas, believed Montreal was the largest Canadian city.

Cities like Vienna, Rome, Berlin, aren't particularly large or important in the modern context, but wield an outsized reputation largely based on legacy attributes.

And ascendant cities often have a lag time until there's universal recognition of their status. Plenty of people still think Chicago is America's second city. Many would be shocked to know that Phoenix is bigger than Detroit, or Tampa is bigger than St. Louis. I still scratch my head re. Dallas, Atlanta and a few others, and can't really wrap my head around their present size. Dallas will shortly have 8 million, Atlanta will shortly have 7 million. That's insane and not really representative of their global status.

I agree with you that rising cities don't immediately benefit from rising recognition. Melbourne will overtake Sydney and, even if the gap grows, it will be decades before people inside and outside the country change their views about Australia's most prominent city.

We saw this with Toronto & Montreal. Toronto overtook Montreal in the mid-70s but Montreal was still the nation's most important city until 1990 when attitudes and reputation started to change. Now that recognition within Canada and internationally has done a complete 180 and Toronto is universally viewed as Canada's premier city including {if begrudgingly} by Montrealers themselves.

I do think in Mel/Syd's case the change in mentality will take MUCH longer than Tor/Mon due to the far more incremental gains of Melbourne as opposed to Canada where Montreal's growth hit a wall due to the potent political landscape and threat of Quebec separatism. Even the Bank of Montreal moved it's headquarters to Toronto as thousands of Anglo & Allophones literally fled Montreal and all of them went to Toronto and they took their business know-how, culture, political power, and money with them. It took Montreal nearly 3 decades to fully recover and get it's mojo back.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

It's interesting how there's no sizable Canadian city on Lake Erie...

Often think about this when i'm spending time on Lake Ontario/Erie. Always found it interesting how the US side has Toledo, Cleveland, Erie, Buffalo, Rochester and the Canadian side doesn't really have anything outside of the GTA horseshoe. Kingston and Bellevile are fine enough but they're no Cleveland, obviously.

Always thought it would be interesting if London were shifted south down to Port Stanley.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

To this day, I still think that Cleveland is probably the biggest, closest city to the Canadian border that most Canadians are completely oblivious to.

Very likely because we have to travel through one of two other cities (Detroit/Buffalo) to reach Cleveland. Four/five years ago Chicago was a pretty popular spot for Ontarians to visit for Instagram-trips because it was a quick flight and very nearby whilst also being on that level above Detroit/Buffalo/Cleveland.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I had a world atlas when I was a kid which was probably published in the 1970s that had a close up of every major city in the world according to the British geographers of the time. The only two Chinese cities that made the cut were Beijing (Peking) and Shanghai, and they were ludicrously lacking in detail; only Montreal and Toronto made the cut for Canadian cities, and Toronto barely sprawled north of the 401.

The usual big American cities were there but, of course, being very dated, Atlanta, DFW, Houston, Miami and Phoenix were missing. Cleveland got a half page spread, which was about the same amount of space given over to cities like Berlin and Rome.

Cleveland looked like a big, sprawling industrial city with rail lines going in all directions. Steel mills were marked as "points of interest". I was really fascinated with Cleveland and I was surprised to learn that it was on a lake that shared a border with Ontario. Nobody I knew had been to Cleveland or talked about Cleveland.

To this day, I still think that Cleveland is probably the biggest, closest city to the Canadian border that most Canadians are completely oblivious to.

Does "Cleveland" technically extend into the waters of Lake Erie, and border Canada in the middle of the lake?

[kool maudit]

Do Americans even know a lot about Cleveland? It just seems to rarely come up.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

for all of its great lakes shoreline, ontario only developed two large cities of consequence, and both of them on lake ontario several dozen miles from each other.

large cities above niagara never developed on the canadian side.

I'd argue that Ottawa is the province of Ontario's second city of consequence (assuming you had Hamilton in mind), and it's not really a child of the Great Lakes.

Ottawa has its origins as an offshoot of the settlement and development patterns of the valley of the St. Lawrence River, by way of the Ottawa River that meets up with it at Montreal.

[MolsonExport]

for sure it is Ottawa (2nd "standalone" big city of Ontario, after Toronto). Hamilton for third, but with KW and London nipping at its heels, and Windsor being nothing to slouch at.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd argue that Ottawa is the province of Ontario's second city of consequence (assuming you had Hamilton in mind), and it's not really a child of the Great Lakes.

Sorry, I didn't complete that thought. It should've read:

"for all of its great lakes shoreline, ontario only developed two large cities of consequence on the lakes, and both of them on the west end of lake ontario several dozen miles from each other."


Windsor, sarnia, sault ste. marie, and thunder bay aren't exactly nothing, but they're all relatively small potatoes compared to toronto and hamilton. For whatever reason, big great lakes cities like chicago, detroit, cleveland, and Milwaukee, never happened in canada above niagara. It must've been a big road block back in the day, whereas the US bypassed that shit with the erie canal into NYC.