Why Montreal is so charming

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Montreal's a great city to visit and party in for a few days before quickly escaping. Aside from a few select neighbourhoods it's lacking cohesive urban character outside of its immediate core, has crumbling infrastructure everywhere you look, and is still expanding and sprawling despite its island confines. Fun for a night out or three but it's a headache living there.

We've left Toronto for Montreal and are quite pleased with our decision - headaches, crumbling infrastructure, lack of cohesive urban character in the non-core and all.

[Steely Dan]

One big takeaway from spending two decades on SSP as an American:

Do not give any credence to Torontonians and Montrealers when it comes their opinions about their respective rival cities.

[GreaterMontréal]

Montreal is having some major investments in infrastructure these days. A new Samuel-de-Champlain bridge with LRT, a new Turcot interchange, the Lafontaine tunnel is currently being repaired and modernized. The Ville-Marie tunnel (downtown) is also being repaired. The REM is under construction. The next major project on the list is the Metropolitan highway.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

One big takeaway from spending two decades on SSP as an American:

Do not give any credence to Torontonians and Montrealers when it comes their opinions about their respective rival cities.

The rivalry between the two has softened in the past two decades; I think both cities have found their respective groove and don't really compete with each other for the same audience, so to speak. Peak rivalry was probably in the 50s when Montreal was a much more English-speaking city and there was a high chance that both cities would face off against each other in the Stanley Cup finals (no chance of that now!).

Montrealers and Torontonians are also probably going to be the people with the most experience with the other city, at least among cities that are on the same plane (so not places like Hamilton or Quebec City or even Ottawa), so they'd be able to give a somewhat informed viewpoint, and not that of a one-time tourist. It's kind of like how I'd weight an opinion about Dallas more from a Houstonian than from a Vancouverite.

In the grander scheme of things, Toronto and Montreal aren't that different from one another. The cities have a different personality and look different at street level, but a lot of "life" is kind of the same in both cities. Montreal has more in common with Toronto than it does with a city that it might look like on a superficial level like Philadelphia.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

In the grander scheme of things, Toronto and Montreal aren't that different from one another. The cities have a different personality and look different at street level, but a lot of "life" is kind of the same in both cities. Montreal has more in common with Toronto than it does with a city that it might look like on a superficial level like Philadelphia.

100% this and I know that myself and others have made this point on SSP in the past. It may differ more depending on particular circles - and of course language - but the Venn diagram of how a lot of people spend their life in the 2 cities has a ton of overlap. This became clear to me when everyone was talking about the "Montreal music scene" (albeit anglo) and I realized that everyone in the 2 cities knew everyone else. The same goes now for friends in the restaurant industry, just to give an example.

[Razor]

Coincidentally, I once asked a Parisian co-worker who was here on exchange if he thought Montreal felt
European, and he blatantly told me that it was very North American. He liked his visit there though. Regardless, it's still unique in North America just by default of being in Quebec and having French as the official first language + the French influences.. A Montreal trip would feel pretty exotic for people visiting from Rockford Illinois, and who haven't travelled extensively. Toronto would seem more familiar to them. As highlighted before, the Orthodox Jew prescence, as well as the heavy Italian and Greek influence also give Montreal a certain rub in a way that I imagine Polish and German heritage do for Milwaukee and Chicago.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Razor

Coincidentally, I once asked a Parisian co-worker who was here on exchange if he felt Montreal felt t
European, and he blatantly told me that it was very North American. He liked his visit there though. Regardless, it's still unique in North America just by default of being in Quebec and having French as the official first language + the French influences.. A Montreal trip would feel pretty exotic for people visiting from Rockford Illinois, and who haven't travelled extensively. Toronto would seem more familiar to them. As highlighted before, the orthodox Jew prescence, as well as the heavy Italian and Greek influence also give Montreal a certain rub in a way that I imagine Polish and German heritage do for Milwaukee and Chicago.

You touched up something interesting - Montreal has a fairly different ethnic mix compared to most other cities in Canada and the US.

The Arab influence is much greater in Montreal as is the sub-Saharan African and of course Haitian. There are far fewer South Asians (India, Pakistan, etc.) in Montreal and also fewer Chinese people.

Paradoxically, by Canadian standards at least the Latin American presence is more visible in Montreal than in any other city.

[Acajack]

I'd also mention that there isn't anything particularly special about the French language in and of itself.

The "special" character isn't related to the language itself, but rather just that it's different.

If the rest of the landmass used French and Montreal spoke primarily English, then it's the English language that would make it special.

And if you guys all spoke Klingon and Montreal spoke mainly Vulcan, it would be the exact same thing.

[someone123]

The differences get exaggerated sometimes with some people talking as if Toronto is a Sunbelt-aged city while Montreal was carved out in the Louis XIV era. In reality they both had a big boom period from around 1880-1930 that basically shaped the character of what we now think of as their central cores where most of the interesting stuff is, and then had similar postwar booms where the same kind of buildings and infrastructure were built (more 60's in Montreal and 70's in Toronto). Toronto had its condo boom earlier but now Montreal is catching up. Toronto was ahead in some ways in the past, and was the first to build a subway system for example.

This is a somewhat random tangent but in the Maritimes it is common to lump Toronto and Montreal together in terms of supposed feel, attitude, or cultural milieu. Montreal is more frequently treated as a major city in the same way Toronto is, and Quebec City is on the radar a bit. I find that Westerners are more caught up with "Frenchness", like Americans often are. Aside from the inaccurate cultural stereotypes I think many of these different perspectives can be accurate at the same time.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Masoliantekw

Basic French Canadian here. And I've always felt way more at home in Paris or Lyon than in Toronto or Vancouver. My opinion is probably unpopular among the anglo-canadians of this forum. And this is not about architecture.

Same here. I have many friends in Paris and in Provence and I feel much more connected culturally and close to them than any of my few friends in Toronto. Language is a strong connective reality. As for the "European" feel of Montreal, I'm not blaming American tourists to find Old Montreal "european looking", because it is to some extend, more so than anything in Boston or Philly and certainly Toronto. But it is a comparatively small part of the city and the rest looks definitely North American, closer to Brooklyn than Cincinnati though.

I find that Monreal looks very different than Toronto. You could drop me anywhere in the two cities and I would know instantly in which I am, I would never confused the two.

[DCReid]

As Montreal and Quebec City are obviously different sized cities but with large French-Canadian populations, how would you compare them? I've only been to Quebec City one time and that was nearly 30 years ago, and I can only remember the wall and large hill to get to downtown. It seemed to be a very small and mostly quiet downtown.

Is Quebec City now undergoing a condo and redevelopment boom as well?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by DCReid

As Montreal and Quebec City are obviously different sized cities but with large French-Canadian populations, how would you compare them? I've only been to Quebec City one time and that was nearly 30 years ago, and I can only remember the wall and large hill to get to downtown. It seemed to be a very small and mostly quiet downtown.

Is Quebec City now undergoing a condo and redevelopment boom as well?

Both cities have a predominantly French Canadian character, but Quebec City way more homogenously so. Montreal is much more diverse and cosmopolitan. Montreal also has a large anglophone minority and this leads to linguistic tensions between the two languages (and in some cases also a positive synergy or "edge"), something which is largely absent in Quebec City.

Both have a mix in their economies but Montreal is very predominantly a business centre whereas Quebec City is a big government town.

Quebec City is French Canada's heartland capital and a bit of a showpiece city.

Montreal is French Canada's interface and crossroads with the wider world.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by someone123

The differences get exaggerated sometimes with some people talking as if Toronto is a Sunbelt-aged city while Montreal was carved out in the Louis XIV era. In reality they both had a big boom period from around 1880-1930 that basically shaped the character of what we now think of as their central cores where most of the interesting stuff is, and then had similar postwar booms where the same kind of buildings and infrastructure were built (more 60's in Montreal and 70's in Toronto). Toronto had its condo boom earlier but now Montreal is catching up. Toronto was ahead in some ways in the past, and was the first to build a subway system for example.

.

Along these lines the common misconception is that Montreal was a bustling metropolis along the lines of American ones while Toronto was a small Ontario nowhereseville town about the size of Kingston until the70s.

In reality the relative population differences weren't all that big, though development patterns and cultural amenities varied significantly. Toronto inched ahead as the "business centre" as early as the 1920s while Montreal was Canada's cultural capital for much longer. The built form reflects this to a degree, as do the prevailing cultural factors mentioned above - Toronto's "single family homes" often housed multiple families as apartment buildings were frowned upon if not outright banned.

In terms of population it's hard to find accurate figures as both cities had a decent amount of built-up area outside city limits, but Montreal hit 1 million around 1930, at which Toronto would have been about 800,000. The latter hit 1 million shortly after WWII when Mtl would have been 1.2-1.3 million.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The rivalry between the two has softened in the past two decades; I think both cities have found their respective groove and don't really compete with each other for the same audience, so to speak. Peak rivalry was probably in the 50s when Montreal was a much more English-speaking city and there was a high chance that both cities would face off against each other in the Stanley Cup finals (no chance of that now!).

Montrealers and Torontonians are also probably going to be the people with the most experience with the other city, at least among cities that are on the same plane (so not places like Hamilton or Quebec City or even Ottawa), so they'd be able to give a somewhat informed viewpoint, and not that of a one-time tourist. It's kind of like how I'd weight an opinion about Dallas more from a Houstonian than from a Vancouverite.

In the grander scheme of things, Toronto and Montreal aren't that different from one another. The cities have a different personality and look different at street level, but a lot of "life" is kind of the same in both cities. Montreal has more in common with Toronto than it does with a city that it might look like on a superficial level like Philadelphia.

From my experiences on this forum, any time I hear a Torontonian speak about Montreal or vice versa, I know it's time to pull the salt truck out of the garage.

[Masoliantekw]

Originally Posted by DCReid

As Montreal and Quebec City are obviously different sized cities but with large French-Canadian populations, how would you compare them? I've only been to Quebec City one time and that was nearly 30 years ago, and I can only remember the wall and large hill to get to downtown. It seemed to be a very small and mostly quiet downtown.

Is Quebec City now undergoing a condo and redevelopment boom as well?

Québec is not a city of towers and likely never will be.

As for the differences between Montréal and Québec, aside from what Acajack has just mentioned, i would add this. As a french canadian who has lived in Montréal during his 20s (for 13 years to be precise), there are parts of the city where I have almost never been, that were not part of my mental map : NDG, western part of downtown (Crescent for example), McGill "ghetto" (except for Cinéma du Parc or Nota Bene). Those neighbourhoods almost felt foreign to my friends and I. UdeM and McGill crowds only rarely mingle. We would rather hang out in Hochelaga, the Plateau, Villeray, Petite-Patrie, Petite-Italie/Jean-Talon market, Rosemont, Quartier Latin, eastern part of downtown, etc. The exception to this would be the Mile End, where I felt something like a cohesiveness about the anglo/franco/neo-montréalers, mostly due to the cultural/musical/theatre scene. But overall, I have perceived the anglo parts of Montréal as almost a city within another city. Anyway, I moved back to Québec 2 years ago.

In Québec, the city where I was raised, the cultural fabric feels more cohesive, it feels more like a whole. There is diversity too. But that diversity is not necessarily made of "visible minorities" (as some like to call it); the waves of immigrant communities tend to melt into the dominant french canadian culture and actively become part of it. Québec is home to important eastern european, south american, maghrebian and middle-eastern communities, and also people from Sahel or sub-saharan Africa. I think 1st or 2nd generations of immigrants barely counts for 12% of the population (quite low on a canadian scale), but that doesn't mean the the remaining 88% are old stock french canadian either It's just that Statistics Canada doesn't keep track of immigration trajectories from the second generation on.

As for the urban form, I would say that suburban Montréal and suburban Québec are quite the same (both urbanistically and culturally). Some early 20th century proletarian inner-city neighbourhoods also look much alike : take Villeray (Montréal) and Limoilou (Québec) for example. Vieux-Montréal and Vieux-Québec (basse-ville) also share some similarities. But Québec doesn't have a mighty north-american metropolis core à la Montréal. La Colline Parlementaire never really took off, and Sainte-Foy is nothing more than a suburban looking secondary core. Overall, though, both cities are organized around a collection of very lively neighbourhoods. They are not "downtown" cities - meaning that if you want to find life in both Montréal or Québec, I would suggest you to get as far as possible from the downtown office towers. Life is on the neighbourhoods commercial streets.

[Minato Ku]

Originally Posted by niwell

Along these lines the common misconception is that Montreal was a bustling metropolis along the lines of American ones while Toronto was a small Ontario nowhereseville town about the size of Kingston until the70s.

In reality the relative population differences weren't all that big...

As I often say, Toronto opened its subway twelve years before Montreal.

Originally Posted by Razor

Coincidentally, I once asked a Parisian co-worker who was here on exchange if he thought Montreal felt
European, and he blatantly told me that it was very North American. He liked his visit there though. Regardless, it's still unique in North America just by default of being in Quebec and having French as the official first language + the French influences.. A Montreal trip would feel pretty exotic for people visiting from Rockford Illinois, and who haven't travelled extensively. Toronto would seem more familiar to them. As highlighted before, the Orthodox Jew prescence, as well as the heavy Italian and Greek influence also give Montreal a certain rub in a way that I imagine Polish and German heritage do for Milwaukee and Chicago.

French people don't come to Quebec because it's more european than the rest of North America but just because it's a part of North America that speak French.
It's a foreign part of the world where you don't have to speak an other language while still being able to live in first world country with a real urban life.

I have never gotten the "it's like Europe" stereotypes or selling point that I see in English speaking media. Just like describing Montreal or Quebec City as a Paris without long flight.
Imagine if someone says "Winnipeg has skyscrapers and it speaks English, it's like New York City".

On an opposite way, many of arguments to differeciate Quebec from France are also quite off the mark because they are reling on outdated or untrue stereotypes about France. The idea of an unchanging exotic France where life is like it was before WW2.

A few exemple, there is the idea that groceries shopping in France is going to the farmer market and small butcher shops . Of course this still exists in some way (and you can also find this in North America) but unfortunaty just like in North America our cities are also surrounded by suburban big box stores and that's what dominate. Obviously because France is a much older country, it has larger old urban cores what cities that still were small town at the beginning of the 20th century don't have but it's just a small part of a much bigger story.
French society is diverse and it's not a new thing that happened overnight.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

A few exemple, there is the idea that groceries shopping in France is going to the farmer market and small butcher shops . Of course this still exists in some way (and you can also find this in North America) but unfortunaty just like in North America our cities are also surrounded by suburban big box stores and that's what dominate. Obviously because France is a much older country, it has larger old urban cores what cities that still were small town at the beginning of the 20th century don't have but it's just a small part of a much bigger story.
French society is diverse and it's not a new thing that happened overnight.

Of course, I believe you guys invented the hypermarket (hypermarché)?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

On an opposite way, many of arguments to differeciate Quebec from France are also quite off the mark because they are reling on outdated or untrue stereotypes about France. The idea of an unchanging exotic France where life is like it was before WW2.

The dominant view of France in North America isn't based on France, it's based on American pop culture (TV shows, Hollywood movies) going back many decades. There is also an intellectual counterpart to this that emphasizes grandiose historical or cultural narratives, weaving together Robespierre and Islamophobia or something like that. It is like the beret-and-stripey-shirt conceptualization in complexity and practical applicability but higher class. It might make people think you are sophisticated at a cocktail party in Cambridge, MA.

It's interesting how much modern stuff is simply lost in translation, even within Canada. There are a lot of hot takes on Quebec politics that we get in English media that are not quite right. And people are not on the whole interested in seeing those perspectives challenged.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

The dominant view of France in North America isn't based on France, it's based on American pop culture (TV shows, Hollywood movies) going back many decades. There is also an intellectual counterpart to this that emphasizes grandiose historical or cultural narratives, weaving together Robespierre and Islamophobia or something like that. It is like the beret-and-stripey-shirt conceptualization in complexity and practical applicability but higher class. It might make people think you are sophisticated at a cocktail party in Cambridge, MA.
.

It's a bit different in Quebec as we have more access to French-made culture and also consume that stuff a lot more. Many French celebrities are also well known celebrities here so we have a better idea of how diverse the population is over there.

Obviously we still have stereotypes about them (and they have stereotypes about us) but it's not as dominant and the perspective tends to be better informed due to more contact simply.

[Minato Ku]

Looking the TV reports about France from Radio Canada in French, it's true that it's much less based on stereotypes than its English speaking counterparts.

France looks like a real country rather than an exotic disneyland for tourists.